Premier League - Brentford FC vs Ipswich Town Preview & Matchday Thread

[Blue Wilf]

That was a tough loss to take but I'm, perhaps perversely, happier this evening than I was before the game.

This team shows a lot of character and I love that we always try to play good attacking football.

I think that criticising KMcK for being a one trick pony misses an essential point. He has a belief in the system he wants his team to play because he knows it works and the more consistently the team sticks to the system the better the results will be over the longer term. Do people complain that Pep Guardiola is a one trick pony? When have you seen him change his system? The same could be said for Klopp, for Slot, for Postecoglou etc.

I still think we'll get stronger as the season progresses, as we come to terms with the better quality of the opposition in this league and, hopefully, with some additions to the squad in January.

Keep the faith!

Well its not working at the moment! It works for Pep cos he has better players and they win things. Same goes for the others you mention. I don't see the validity of your analogy at all for that reason. We don't have those players so have to adapt - I am not seeing that at all from McKenna - just blind faith. The same faith you want me to keep. I like much of what he does and says but he is not the messiah (just a bery naughty boy - before you can say it Marko ). I don't know if you et to many games Massey but trust me, its not great to suffer like we did yesterday and then have to haul your as* home week after week... any team or successful business needs to be able to adapt. We are not showing that attribute imo

[collinsc]

Just watched MOTD... i forced myself to watch as there was 2 key things that i wanted to check....

1) I believe there was a foul on us (not given) just before they scored one of their 2 goals (forget if it was first or second).. but that was not shown (or edited out), unless i am mistaken?

2) Their second goal, which I presumed to be probably the tightest VAR offside ever, however there were no lines shown to prove or disprove the offside....

What's going on!?

[ATB]

Just watched MOTD... i forced myself to watch as there was 2 key things that i wanted to check....

1) I believe there was a foul on us (not given) just before they scored one of their 2 goals (forget if it was first or second).. but that was not shown (or edited out), unless i am mistaken?

2) Their second goal, which I presumed to be probably the tightest VAR offside ever, however there were no lines shown to prove or disprove the offside....

What's going on!?

There was a line shown very briefly when I watched it.

[ATB]

In the last 3 games we have conceded 6 goals within 6 minutes of half time (4 in the first half, 2 in the second)


That’s a concentration and mental state issue.

If we had held on to a 2-0 lead at half time, I’m sure we would’ve won it. Instead letting in two goals means the lads went in thinking “f*ck, how did that happen” and Brentford go in thinking “great comeback! We got this one fellas”.

It needs addressing

[collinsc]

Just watched MOTD... i forced myself to watch as there was 2 key things that i wanted to check....

1) I believe there was a foul on us (not given) just before they scored one of their 2 goals (forget if it was first or second).. but that was not shown (or edited out), unless i am mistaken?

2) Their second goal, which I presumed to be probably the tightest VAR offside ever, however there were no lines shown to prove or disprove the offside....

What's going on!?

There was a line shown very briefly when I watched it.

Oh wow! Just watched it back again, no line showing here!

[Cabanas Blue]

In the last 3 games we have conceded 6 goals within 6 minutes of half time (4 in the first half, 2 in the second)


That’s a concentration and mental state issue.

If we had held on to a 2-0 lead at half time, I’m sure we would’ve won it. Instead letting in two goals means the lads went in thinking “f*ck, how did that happen” and Brentford go in thinking “great comeback! We got this one fellas”.

It needs addressing

If Szmodics had put that easier chance away to make it 3 it would have been a different result IMO.

[Bluemike]

In the last 3 games we have conceded 6 goals within 6 minutes of half time (4 in the first half, 2 in the second)


That’s a concentration and mental state issue.

If we had held on to a 2-0 lead at half time, I’m sure we would’ve won it. Instead letting in two goals means the lads went in thinking “f*ck, how did that happen” and Brentford go in thinking “great comeback! We got this one fellas”.

It needs addressing

Absolutely bang on, we can't see it out to HT

And yes as stated had Szmodics scored the chance is game over, that's as bad as any defenders error in my book.

[Mach_Polish_Blue]

In the last 3 games we have conceded 6 goals within 6 minutes of half time (4 in the first half, 2 in the second)


That’s a concentration and mental state issue.

If we had held on to a 2-0 lead at half time, I’m sure we would’ve won it. Instead letting in two goals means the lads went in thinking “f*ck, how did that happen” and Brentford go in thinking “great comeback! We got this one fellas”.

It needs addressing

It needs addressing. We've known it for a while and it isn't getting addressed. We go toe-to-toe against Premier League teams irrespective of circumstances (heavily weakened defence, better opponents).

Imagine going toe-to-toe against Tottenham in 2 weeks time. A carnage is guaranteed.

[marko69]

Got to think it’ll be around 10 or 11 nil v Spurs for absolute sure!! After watching extended highlights, and thinking it was a regular EPL game between two very good sides going “toe to toe” ——>> get rid of McKenna if things don’t change.

Some of the above tongue in cheek nonsense in response to the unbelievable flapping that is going on across all platforms with some ipswich town supporters. Jaysus H.

Having a quick look at Burnley alone should explain the enormity of the gulf that Mash & Co are attempting to negotiate. Bottom of the league and a pile of shyte for all season, and theyre 2nd in the Champ & playing well. Its night & day.

Are there any names out there that could have Ipswich playing park the bus desperate hoofball should Kieron get emptied when it’s 7-0 at HT v Spurs?

[Ricco]

And yes as stated had Szmodics scored the chance is game over, that's as bad as any defenders error in my book.

Agreed, but the missed chance also shows that other keepers c*ck up and do mad things too.

I think Muric pulled off a save or two that Hladky probably wouldn't have, and the last goal (while his fault as you have to cover the cross), is always extremely tricky, if you dive for the cross and an attacker gets their head to the ball, then you look like a complete idiot too.

43 shots and 22 on target in the last two away games, and against mid division teams, that is not sustainable, even if you had Walton and Muric in goal. We need to address that, we kept a lid on Man C and Liverpool better than that. Is it tactical approach, is it concentration, I don't know, it needs sorting.

[Mariner67]

That second yellow card for Harry Clarke was not a foul, he got the ball,player dived,before I get accused of not seeing it,I've watch this 7 or 8 times.can var be used on these decisions.

[Ricco]

100%.

I forgot to mention that second yellow was complete ball sheet. The arrogance of the ref to stand there and think he was correct in his decision, plus the lack of VAR when it was meant to prevent howlers like that.

It doesn't particularly even matter who got there first, it was that tight that they were both fairly going for the ball. Free kick if you think he's second there, fine, but a yellow when he's already on one? Not in a decade of Sundays.

[Andym]

I think Muric pulled off a save or two that Hladky probably wouldn't have, and the last goal (while his fault as you have to cover the cross), is always extremely tricky, if you dive for the cross and an attacker gets their head to the ball, then you look like a complete idiot too.

I’m glad you posted that as I would have said exactly the same if I could have been bothered to comment earlier. Assuming you can’t get to the cross (which he couldn’t) you don’t know whether to follow its course or assume that someone - attacker or defender - will get on the end of it. It always looks so bad but as a keeper you’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t.
I’m not defending him as a keeper, he scares me to death, but I think he’s being over criticised on that one incident.
Likewise Harry Clarke. I don’t think he’s good enough (although at the moment we’re have little alternative - God knows who will play there next week), but he was a bit unlucky yesterday. That was not an own goal. It was going in and he tried desperately to prevent it. Penalty was a tough one to take, the initial foul was outside the area and I can’t see whether it continued into the area or not. And the second yellow was underserved as he got the ball. More significantly for both those cards he was caught on the wrong side of the striker. So his positional sense at these incidents support my feeling that he isn’t good enough, but the particular consequences (own goal, penalty, red card) don’t necessarily. Likewise Muric.
I have to say I never expected us to survive and still don’t. I’ve repeatedly said that after ProMotion you have to be able to defend, and we can’t. It’s not necessarily the players (do we have any fit defenders left?) but the style of play. At 2-0 up we still kept attacking and left ourselves exposed. But would we prefer a McCarthy-style approach of defending to the point of boredom and hoping to catch the opposition on the break? There’s no guarantee it would be any more successful.
The premier league is showing itself to be everything we feared, from an uneven playing field to changed kick off times to VAR and subconsciously biased officials. I wonder if the European super league proposed a couple of years ago would have taken the super-rich away and left us with a better prem? I’m not sure.
My greatest concern at the moment isn’t relegation - I’m expecting that - but what happens afterwards. Burnley may be sitting 2nd in the championship but Luton are 22nd….

[Ricco]

I agree, I like Harry Clarke, he's brought a lot to the club and the squad, but the Premier League is a tough beast. He's a bit lazy in the way he moves and thinks, a bit like Davis, but more so, and Davis is more agile, therefore more able to make amends for not spotting and tracking a run. Does that make them bad players, absobloodylutely not, does it mean they will have some very bad days at this level, I think so.

The best defenders follow attackers and make defensive runs to preempt plays. Our full backs are reactive, rather than proactive, which means that attackers are constantly stealing a march on them (entirely in my opinion of course). I think that kind of thingsl is deeply ingrained and also part of their personality, it's not something that can be coached out of a player in weeks or months.

[Mariner67]

100%.

I forgot to mention that second yellow was complete ball sheet. The arrogance of the ref to stand there and think he was correct in his decision, plus the lack of VAR when it was meant to prevent howlers like that.

It doesn't particularly even matter who got there first, it was that tight that they were both fairly going for the ball. Free kick if you think he's second there, fine, but a yellow when he's already on one? Not in a decade of Sundays.

Thank you,I don't need to go to specsavers then lol

[Bluemike]

I think Muric pulled off a save or two that Hladky probably wouldn't have, and the last goal (while his fault as you have to cover the cross), is always extremely tricky, if you dive for the cross and an attacker gets their head to the ball, then you look like a complete idiot too.

I’m glad you posted that as I would have said exactly the same if I could have been bothered to comment earlier. Assuming you can’t get to the cross (which he couldn’t) you don’t know whether to follow its course or assume that someone - attacker or defender - will get on the end of it. It always looks so bad but as a keeper you’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t.
I’m not defending him as a keeper, he scares me to death, but I think he’s being over criticised on that one incident.
Likewise Harry Clarke. I don’t think he’s good enough (although at the moment we’re have little alternative - God knows who will play there next week), but he was a bit unlucky yesterday. That was not an own goal. It was going in and he tried desperately to prevent it. Penalty was a tough one to take, the initial foul was outside the area and I can’t see whether it continued into the area or not. And the second yellow was underserved as he got the ball. More significantly for both those cards he was caught on the wrong side of the striker. So his positional sense at these incidents support my feeling that he isn’t good enough, but the particular consequences (own goal, penalty, red card) don’t necessarily. Likewise Muric.
I have to say I never expected us to survive and still don’t. I’ve repeatedly said that after ProMotion you have to be able to defend, and we can’t. It’s not necessarily the players (do we have any fit defenders left?) but the style of play. At 2-0 up we still kept attacking and left ourselves exposed. But would we prefer a McCarthy-style approach of defending to the point of boredom and hoping to catch the opposition on the break? There’s no guarantee it would be any more successful.
The premier league is showing itself to be everything we feared, from an uneven playing field to changed kick off times to VAR and subconsciously biased officials. I wonder if the European super league proposed a couple of years ago would have taken the super-rich away and left us with a better prem? I’m not sure.
My greatest concern at the moment isn’t relegation - I’m expecting that - but what happens afterwards. Burnley may be sitting 2nd in the championship but Luton are 22nd….

This is the very crux of the issue though Andy, Mckenna needs a plan B, if only for a few minutes now and again , this is where myself and Wilf and others have an issue.
You mention the McCarthy style approach, no we don't want that as the norm but we 100% needed that approach for 5 minutes leading up to half time, had we done so we almost certainly win that game, at present Mckenna isn't capable of adjusting it when needed and we continue to go gung ho, so yes at times we do need the pragmatic approach to protect what should have been a match winning lead.

[RRanger]

Sitting on my hands behind the goal in the East stand, I only forgot myself once and that was Delap's equaliser for 3-3 when I couldn't contain myself. I normally agree with most of what you say Mike but I do think you are being rather too blinkered about Muric. Yes, he has mistakes in him but if you take Brentford's flukey 4th goal out of the equation, he had a pretty good game yesterday and made a couple of saves that definitely kept us in the game. Despite my tremendous disappointment after the game, on reflection I feel more confident that we will not be relegated at the end of the season and that the squad as a whole will have gained a lot of confidence from the performance. One has to accept that with the late injuries and Omari being ill on the day, the team that was put out will not have trained together for the match specifically and as for preferring to be relegated than staying up, well, I just don't understand any supporter who could possibly even half want that.

[hallamblue]

I remember the first time we were relegated from the PL... we could not buy a win for love nor money that season. All we kept doing was drawing games. We HAVE to take our chances and stop gifting goals. We are our own worst enemy atm.

[Blue Wilf]

Sitting on my hands behind the goal in the East stand, I only forgot myself once and that was Delap's equaliser for 3-3 when I couldn't contain myself. I normally agree with most of what you say Mike but I do think you are being rather too blinkered about Muric. Yes, he has mistakes in him but if you take Brentford's flukey 4th goal out of the equation, he had a pretty good game yesterday and made a couple of saves that definitely kept us in the game. Despite my tremendous disappointment after the game, on reflection I feel more confident that we will not be relegated at the end of the season and that the squad as a whole will have gained a lot of confidence from the performance. One has to accept that with the late injuries and Omari being ill on the day, the team that was put out will not have trained together for the match specifically and as for preferring to be relegated than staying up, well, I just don't understand any supporter who could possibly even half want that.

He bloody SHOULD make such saves though, Ranger! You say you see enough for us to stay up but what gives you that confidence as it sure as hell isn't our points tally! We should have at least drawn yesterday but we went full on to win when we had 10 men on the pitch. It was suicide tactics and it happens week after week! We need to be able to control a game but McKenna only had his one way of playing. That system is failing to bring points - pure and simple. He keeps saying don't panic - so when do we panic? After 10 games? 15? 20? We should have had a point yesterday but now we are in the bottom 3 with a squad that must be as gutted as the fans and an injury list that takes your breath away - all after spending £100m. I said in the summer that this huge spending carried those risks and so it has proved. Now, with the team we have available, we have to eke out points and yesterday should have been one. It could well be vital in May.

McKenna needs to have a way to adapt but I have sonfar not seen it and 9 games in, we are in big trouble. Look at what Shearer said on MOTD about us being bottom of the stats tables... it cannot go on cos as it stands, we are going down.

[Bluemike]

Sitting on my hands behind the goal in the East stand, I only forgot myself once and that was Delap's equaliser for 3-3 when I couldn't contain myself. I normally agree with most of what you say Mike but I do think you are being rather too blinkered about Muric. Yes, he has mistakes in him but if you take Brentford's flukey 4th goal out of the equation, he had a pretty good game yesterday and made a couple of saves that definitely kept us in the game. Despite my tremendous disappointment after the game, on reflection I feel more confident that we will not be relegated at the end of the season and that the squad as a whole will have gained a lot of confidence from the performance. One has to accept that with the late injuries and Omari being ill on the day, the team that was put out will not have trained together for the match specifically and as for preferring to be relegated than staying up, well, I just don't understand any supporter who could possibly even half want that.

That's fine mate, everyone has opinions on all things football, my opinion on Muric was there when we were looking to sign him, I don't rate him based on what I had read, seen and heard about, he's a car crash waiting to happen, it started in the very first game at Man City where he gifted them Three unnecessary goals, of course he makes good saves occasionally, it's his job after all.

Aside from the obvious errors his distribution is rank bad and beyond risky, he doesn't command his box anywhere near as much as he should for a man his size, he doesn't appear to talk to the defence either, I see very few positives in him if I'm honest

If ever you get a chance look on the Burnley forum for the thread when we signed him, they couldn't believe their luck at selling him on at such a ridiculous price, yes some said on his day he's tremendous, most said he'd cost us numerous points that we can ill afford. There will be more errors to come, just wait and see. I hope to god I'm wrong.

[The Odious Mr Rossi]

Yes Kompany couldn't do it, so what......, KMcK can do it.

Maybe - but at the moment he's not doing it.

[Blue Wilf]

Yes Kompany couldn't do it, so what......, KMcK can do it.

Maybe - but at the moment he's not doing it.

Exactly!

[marko69]

I think everyone should listen to Alan Shearer! He was a managerial masterclass. Deary me. SERIOUSLY???

Ipswich Town were 2-0 up......, went 3-2 down, had a man sent off in 69th minute (never a foul, let alone a card) ......, created chances AND kept Brentford out until equalising with a sublime effort from Delap 18 minutes AFTER being reduced to ten......, and then succumbed to what can only be described as a pot shot at goal, (which I do agree Muric should've maybe judged that better)....... BUT

..... come on guys FFS?!!....., had he adopted defensive tactics to shore up the 3-3, he'd have been lambasted as well due to Muric's inability to stop a freakish fluky lash out for a goal.

Its a thankless task. I do not know Kieron McKenna from Adam but I do hope he has very VERY thick skin. I think he will have. He's heard it all before. Thankfully the majority of Ipswich Town fans have faith in Mashton. That pleases me immensely because I know Mashton himself knows KMcK is the guy who'll get the club ticking.
He done it in League One when a lynch mob were out.
He done it in the Championship when everyone was, "Oh well, top 2 is out now, lucky to be play-offs" etc etc etc
And he'll do it this season with that bottom 6 mini-table scenario.

IF he's emptied, that's when you put yer dosh on the relegation...., if you're that way inclined.

[Bluemike]

Marko, he only had to shut up shop for 5 minutes before half time and we win that game, that's all, he wasn't up to it, very poor game management and it's happened several times before.

[arana peligrosa]

Viewed game highlights, penalty decision seemed inconclusive no matter how resolute some make it to be. Couldn't quite put Muric at fault for the fourth goal although opinion seems consistent he shouldn't be part of the team set-up. Smodzics had a fine goal, Hirst was difficult to pick out due to sloppy transmission and Delap has proven by now to be of the most valuable parts of what we got this season. It's going to take more than one player of that caliber to keep the team up.

Kind of bizarre the team has no wins in 9 games yet finds itself out of relegation zone position. I think we showed a certain character yesterday that wouldn't have been evident in past seasons or managers and while they f*cked us over right at the very end anyone could see the positives to take from it. McKenna requires to play key individuals such as Smodzics, Hirst and Burns / Chaplin from the start rather than bench names mentioned on the occasions he does so. That way we possess a chance as the first forty-five demonstrated.

[Blue Wilf]

I think everyone should listen to Alan Shearer! He was a managerial masterclass. Deary me. SERIOUSLY???

Ipswich Town were 2-0 up......, went 3-2 down, had a man sent off in 69th minute (never a foul, let alone a card) ......, created chances AND kept Brentford out until equalising with a sublime effort from Delap 18 minutes AFTER being reduced to ten......, and then succumbed to what can only be described as a pot shot at goal, (which I do agree Muric should've maybe judged that better)....... BUT

..... come on guys FFS?!!....., had he adopted defensive tactics to shore up the 3-3, he'd have been lambasted as well due to Muric's inability to stop a freakish fluky lash out for a goal.

Its a thankless task. I do not know Kieron McKenna from Adam but I do hope he has very VERY thick skin. I think he will have. He's heard it all before. Thankfully the majority of Ipswich Town fans have faith in Mashton. That pleases me immensely because I know Mashton himself knows KMcK is the guy who'll get the club ticking.
He done it in League One when a lynch mob were out.
He done it in the Championship when everyone was, "Oh well, top 2 is out now, lucky to be play-offs" etc etc etc
And he'll do it this season with that bottom 6 mini-table scenario.

IF he's emptied, that's when you put yer dosh on the relegation...., if you're that way inclined.

Am not criticising him and saying be is a poor manager, Marko - just that he needs to be able to manage a game and he had 2 chances to do that yesterday (and numerous in other games) but has failed to do so. Oh - and I am not espousing Shearers management qualities - just the fact (and it is a fact) that we are bottom of all the stats that we would really rather not be! That translates into 4 points from 27 when with better game management, we could have had 5, 6 or more. If we still have 4 points in 5 games time (lets face it, leicester, spurs, man utd and forest away could easily yield 3 points max and Leicester are no mugs) then we will be 13 games in... over a third of the season... still confident?! I know I am not. I am sure we will have chances to get points from those other games but ONLY if we manage the games better - oh and if Muric fucks off... but there you have it. It sincerely hope I am wrong and that things change but I have seen no evidence that it will from McKenna so far...

[Blue Wilf]

Here you go - disagree if you can...

McKenna said after the game that there was much to be positive about, but Shearer disagreed, speaking as the show flashed up a graphic of Town's lowly rankings across a number of key stats.

He said: “I understand why he’s trying to be as upbeat as possible with the psychology and trying to somehow keep his players believing that they can be competitive - but more importantly they can stay in this league.

“But when you look at the stats, unless every single thing improves, they’ve got no chance to stay in this league.

“Because if they’re not bottom, they’re second bottom in almost everything – shots, shots on target, expected goals, touches in the opposition box, goals conceded. Which we’ve seen, so many errors today and errors leading to goals.

“So those stats tell you everything you need to know.”

[marko69]

He'll look at the stats behind closed doors when there are no reporters in his face and he'll learn. He is still learning believe it or not. And he's proved on so many (SO MANY) occasions that he can learn and adapt. I think people need to be patient with the building process of the team he is trying to build and assemble in the EPL no less.

To be honest, the disparity in opinion is (and always will be) essentially born out of pre season expectation. If people were expecting a fast start (after the Liverpool and Citeh games) then yep, I understand the levels of "FFS-ness"......, but if you're expecting nail biting survival but possible relegation because the step up is HUGE, then the FFS-ness is lower. Just cannot buy the "he's not learning from his mistakes" thinking. Season is NO WHERE near been going long enough for that.

After say game 28, if the club are cut adrift on the bottom, and he's been 2-0 up in most games but is losing......., then it'd be, "Kieron? What's happening , man?"

[Blue Wilf]

I am sure he will Marko - but he needs to learn to adapt and FAST!

[AzzurroMark]

I've not really commented since the final whistle blew on Saturday. Has been very interesting reading the various discussions on here.

I finally got to watch the MOTD and TownTV highlights and, ever trying to remain positive, I shall side more with Marko & RRangers posts.

Losing Omari late in the day will have certainly unsettled the side to a degree.

Another thing which nobody has really picked up on is the injury to Ogbene. Is it any coincidence that Brentford's first goal came down our right hand side and the player I believe Ogbene would have been picking up was heavily involved. There was just 9 minutes between Burns coming on, without a warm up and that goal. Yes it's conjecture now but I think there is more likelihood that they wouldn't have scored that goal and found a quick route back into the game.
Regardless of KM's tactics, did Burns end up leaving Clarke more isolated than Ogbene would have? We'll never know.

Of course throughout our team we are making so many mistakes leading to goals being conceded, but I think Brentford deserve a lot more credit too. They absolutely ploughed men into our box in that second half especially! At the same time the Bees, as a result possibly, were often left exposed at the back. Credit to Keiran for his starting formation there. Two players in from the cold, really caught them out stone cold with their goals. In fact that was a very different front line full stop, but it certainly worked for a time.

Muric! Well he's certainly the villain of the piece on all social media comments and even I don't quite know what he was doing for their 4th goal. What worried me the moment the ball crossed the line, was that we had 3 defenders marshalling 6 Brentford players in our box, 5 of them were closer to the goal than our next nearest player. There's a cluster of about 4-5 town players around the penalty box who are marking fresh air! So yes Muric is highly culpable, but a few others need to look at themselves.

No arguments with the penalty (I'd have been screaming for one if that was for us). As for Clarke's second yellow. From the clips I saw I feel sure that their player dived. Yes Clarke's leg went across him, but I didn't feel there was any contact. Like I say the one replay from behind was not brilliantly clear.

Am I defending KM, Muric, Clarke? Yes in ways! Are there lessons for them all to learn? Most certainly yes. However I'm sticking with my blue tinted glasses. It's very, very fine margins in the toughest of leagues! I heard enough in the commentary yesterday to STILL give me hope. Injuries are crippling us right now, when a fairly settled side, especially defensively, is what we need. I was sickened by that late loss yesterday, but for a few centimetres Delap could so easily have made it 4-4 and what a different narrative that would have been!

TRUST THE PROCESS