TURKISH PROBLEMS - non kebab thread

[the-mole]

In all seriousness I have just read a report about the game between turkey and switzerland.

Now forgive me if I am wrong, but turkey as a nation is reknowned for some of the worst off-field incidents in europe the past few years. WHy is something not done about it???

England on the whole has cleaned up its act massively - yet we are still targeted by the blind tw*ts running FIFA and UEFA.

Now we are hearing that FIFA aren't ruling out banning turkey from future competitions - they should be made an example of - throw them out now and give them a fookin 20 year ban. Make them look like a bunch of stupid morons coz that is all they deserve.

You can guarentee had that been ourselves we would have had both the book and bookcase throw at us!! Double standards and hypocrisy is rife in the worlds governing bodies and I am sick of it!!

[phily bon bon]

[quote="the-mole"]In all seriousness I have just read a report about the game between turkey and switzerland.

Now forgive me if I am wrong, but turkey as a nation is reknowned for some of the worst off-field incidents in europe the past few years. WHy is something not done about it???

England on the whole has cleaned up its act massively - yet we are still targeted by the blind tw*ts running FIFA and UEFA.

Now we are hearing that FIFA aren't ruling out banning turkey from future competitions - they should be made an example of - throw them out now and give them a fookin 20 year ban. Make them look like a bunch of stupid morons coz that is all they deserve.

You can guarentee had that been ourselves we would have had both the book and bookcase throw at us!! Double standards and hypocrisy is rife in the worlds governing bodies and I am sick of it!![/quote]


Sad but true mr mole....england has cleaned up its act massively over the last number of years and the last euro competition was a clear example of how far we have come,however maybe Im wrong but I think its also a question of whom we are playing that could bring out the worst in some of the travelling england support.We will see what happens in germany,I only prey it goes off without trouble fromthe england fans ,because I fear we/they will be provoked expecting a reaction.

[essexgirl]

phily
I agree the World Cup will be the real test on how far we have come.

Even though Turkey are not in the competition there is still a possibility of trouble between the Turks and English in Germany as there are a high number of Turks living there. The problem also is that although there is no doubt that the banning orders have had a strong effect on troublemakers going abroad you only need a few of the idiots to slip through the net to cause havoc over there.

With regards to Euro 2004 there were a couple of potential flash points (for example when we played Croatia there were some of their fans trying to goad the English in the main square before the game) but fortunately they had the common sense just to ignore it.

One of my main concerns regarding the World Cup is the policing side of things. If it is handled like it was in Madrid then I can see things really kicking off even with the official England fan members.

[monstermunch]

Look, I'm sick and tired of England fans having this "us? we're innocent" attitude. So, here we go off the top of my head:

List of shameful incidents involving England fans in the past 8 years:
* Violence in Marseilles before and during Tunisia game.
* Violence in Paris with Turkey fans
* Rampage in Charlroi before Germany game
* Violence and arrests in Vienna before Leichtenstein game
* Racist chanting, pitch invasions and violence outside the stadium before Turkey game in Sunderland

Yeah, England are so innocent. Why do the authorities always pick on them? Maybe it's because they have a proven track record for causing trouble abroad? Not many could afford to travel to Japan, and Portugal isn't exactly teeming with hooligans. Just you wait until Germany, then we'll see if England's sometimes lamentable following has changed or not.

[toby]

MM, I don't think anyone is claiming that ALL England fans are innocent and obviously the incidents you mention are evidence that it isn't true.

However I do believe that there has been a massive change in the support that England (and English club sides) get when abroad, in that now it is generally a lot friendlier and full of people who want to see another country and make friends with the locals rather than kick their heads in!

England have taken great strides in curbing the worst excesses of English hooligans and I hope that continues in Germany next year, however I do think that it was about time that FIFA/UEFA started to put pressure on some of the other nations to get their houses in order.

Turkey and Turkish fans have been involved in several incidents in recent year including murders! So have Italian fans, there have been many stabbings at Serie A matches and of course last years Milan derby in the Champions League had to be abandoned due to crowd trouble (which is why Inter are playing behind closed doors this season).

There is regulary trouble in Holland and both Spain and France have real trouble with racist and facist groups infiltrating supporters groups and let's not even get started on the problems of teams in Eastern Europe and the Balkans!

The truth is that English football has moved on from the darks days of the '70's and '80's where as a lot of other countries seem to be going in the opposite direction (the worst violence I have ever seen at a football match was in Holland, FC Twente vs Ajax where a full scale riot broke out and I stayed on the terrace, which had a fence preventing access to the pitch, whilst a riot broke out in the street outside...to say that I was sh*tting myself was an understatement...that incident didn't even make the Dutch national news as it was such a commonplace occurence!).

[the-mole]

Toby hit the nail on the head there MM. Yes we all know we have a bad reputation - we are far from innocent but we are working our asses off to make football a friendly family game in this country. Whilst we do this the rest of europe seems to be going down the pan.

Possibly says alot about their countries on the whole I guess. Whilst the UK is far from problem free effort is made to try and encourage an environment where people can live and work together. Considering this is the 21st century and most of Europe has us to thank for not having a european/german superstate - their attitudes and sheer ignorance makes me sick and tired of having to be associated with anything "EUROPEAN" - which also includes the football.

[Dubai Blue]

For what its worth I think the whole issue is far more complex. Turkey generally suffers from a racist attitude from Western Europe in particular and many Turks feel I think that they are regarded as inferior by Germans & Britons &c. These social problems are often what spill over into violence.

I also believe that our record of trouble abroad is improving but I have also witnessed during my 2 years living in Istanbul (1998 & 1999) Turkish fans being wound up by very racist English club fans (Leeds, Chelsea to name but a couple) and absolutely not only in the stadia. Many Turks speak good English and temperamentally they are not necessarily the most laid back of peoples when insulted but then why should they be ?

We should remember that racism is not just about skin colour it is about the ignorant view that one nationality is somehow superior to another simply because it is ......... what ? Economically successful ? So is Turkey. Non-Muslim ? Wetter ? I don't know what.

In Turkey's case we are now in a vicious circle but who started it ?

Also remember that even though our record has improved we still have the reputation all over Europe of being the pinnacle of football violence. Here in Poland the violent groups don't even bother using Polish words to describe themselves they just call themselves 'hooligans' or 'hools'. No accident I think that they picked an English word used by the press and normal people to describe our yobs. The decision was based on the status that being somehow identified with English yobs is imagined to confer. It will take a long time before we stop being regarded as a legitimate target by would-be 'hools' around Europe and I think that the only thing that will change this will be even consistently worse behaviour by another nationality to whom we will then be able to pass on the baton.

We are still sufferring from the outrageous behaviour of our travelling wa***r fans in the 70s & 80s and the memory of those related deaths and horrible injuries. Whilst we personally are not to blame, we are going to have to be humble about it for some time yet.

[hallamblue]

When was the last time English fans actually murderedanother Club's fan ...(thinking of the Leeds fans that were murdered)....Its about time Turkish Clubs and their National team were banned from ALL competitions IMHO. English Clubs have been banned for far less in the past !

[toby]

When was the last time English fans actually murderedanother Club's fan ...(thinking of the Leeds fans that were murdered)....Its about time Turkish Clubs and their National team were banned from ALL competitions IMHO. English Clubs have been banned for far less in the past !

Whilst I agree up to a point, 39 dead at Heysel says otherwise HB.

[Dubai Blue]

Indeed and to be honest I am pretty sure only luck prevented other deaths on numerous other occasions.

Its agreed that I don't remember an English fan stabbing another football fan to death however and the murder of the Leeds fan in Istanbul cannot be dismissed lightly.

I agree that punishments should be consistent but what brought about our ban was many deaths in a tragic accident not just 'general' hooliganism.

Nevertheless I agree that something more should be done about in particular the Turkish & Italian fans.

[monstermunch]

If the Leeds fans had been stabbed in the stadium I would agree. They weren't, they may have been stabbed because they were Leeds fans, but otherwise it's unfair to bring football into that whole thing. Galatasaray and the rest shouldn't have been punished for it and rightly they weren't.