Video Assistant Referee (VAR) System - Thoughts guys ?

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Video Assistant Referee (VAR) System - Thoughts guys ?

Post by Charnwood » Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:41 am

Well I thought it was time for a new topic to debate and after last nights debacle in the German Bundesliga there’s no better a topic to discuss than this as it only appears to be a matter of time before it comes our way.

Take a look at this before you decide;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/43791511

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Re: Video Assistant Referee (VAR) System - Thoughts guys ?

Post by marko69 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:59 am

That particular incident was a complete joke......, even though it was justice done ——-> the guy blatantly handled the ball. They’ll need to fine tune the VAR and it’ll be fine.

FTR, I am a fan of Australian and American sports and the “man in the booth” works totally fine, no issues whatsoever. The same can happen with the “saaawker” here.

No doubt at all that there will people bumping their gums over it though. That’s why it’ll be a nice wee debate.

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Re: Video Assistant Referee (VAR) System - Thoughts guys ?

Post by Tangfastic » Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:08 am

Bizarre. It can work in cricket and rugby ... more stop-start, but it could well ruin football.

Prefer to have improved refereeing and acceptance of bad decisions to keep football flowing.

All that toilet roll on the pitch makes me pity the poor b*stard stuck on the pot wondering how he’s going to wipe his as*.

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Re: Video Assistant Referee (VAR) System - Thoughts guys ?

Post by marko69 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:25 am

It’s becoming stop-start anyway with players collapsing like sacks o tatties!

Anything debateable in that 18 yard box needs reviewed when play stops. That’s the difference that some get confused with. The ref isn’t going to stop play to view VAR..... it’ll be a few seconds viewing after the incident.

The game has been screaming out for it for years. Entire cup runs and subsequent cup finals can instantly become farcical when a tackle quite clearly outside the f**king box is judged as a penalty by a f**king bellend calling himself a referee.

That’s another thing......., it’ll help the referees who have similar refereeing abilities as my granny.

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Re: Video Assistant Referee (VAR) System - Thoughts guys ?

Post by charlton837 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:57 pm

whilst VAR will end up in our football im not a fan of it. Think its been pretty crap in trials so far including in the FA Cup. Id be a fan of it for something that is right or wrong, but my issue is that a lot of it is still left to interpretation. Goal line technology is great as its either a goal or not and there is no arguing. But judging by some of the decisions made using VAR ive still felt they got it wrong so it doesn't seem to get the right result for me

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Re: Video Assistant Referee (VAR) System - Thoughts guys ?

Post by Bluemike » Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:37 pm

I think it's a load of crap to be perfectly honest, why are people intent on ruining the beautiful game that has been tried and tested for years and years ? Part of the appeal is the human error aspect of the game, all this modern technology crap will just ruin it.

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Re: Video Assistant Referee (VAR) System - Thoughts guys ?

Post by charlton837 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:55 pm

Bluemike wrote:I think it's a load of crap to be perfectly honest, why are people intent on ruining the beautiful game that has been tried and tested for years and years ? Part of the appeal is the human error aspect of the game, all this modern technology crap will just ruin it.
I agree to a large extent, however I do admit the goal line technology has been a great thing. But the only reason I think that is because every time it gives the correct decision and there is no time delay whatsoever, also it stops players/managers complaining afterwards taking some pressure off refs.

But aside from that I don't want technology, discussions/debates is what makes football what it is.

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Re: Video Assistant Referee (VAR) System - Thoughts guys ?

Post by marko69 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:31 pm

charlton837 wrote:Think its been pretty crap in trials so far including in the FA Cup.....
That’s because we’re British. Everything new in sport in this country is crap. If they get it right; fine tune it, it’ll make the horrendous decisions vanish from the game and that’ll be excellent for everyone.

No doubt it’s a proper debateable subject, but for me, (and fans who travel distances to games) I feel it’ll be better in place, than not being there.

Anybody who is ok with blatantly wrong decisions being part of the game need their head examined, regardless if they’ve been part of the game for years. Striving to make things better is the nature of everything.

Or you could have the attitude of one of my mates....., “Ach, Ye take the rough wi the smooth.”
Fuuuk that. I’d rather take the correct decision, especially if I’ve paid for tickets, coffees, pizzas, burgers, buses, my feckin time ——-> tackle three yards outside the box = penalty. Nope! Fk that.

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Re: Video Assistant Referee (VAR) System - Thoughts guys ?

Post by herforder » Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:57 pm

The problem is that ‘getting right’, where critical issues such as relegation, promotion etc might be affected, can only be achieved by using VAR in ‘live’, professional, match situations. Some will inevitably suffer from poor or dubious third party decisions, as the price to pay for achieving that fine tuning. Whilst the advocates of technology = progress have a cause to promote, there’s an equally valid position that, in what is a simple game, the Mk 1 eyeball remains the best solution and, as history tends to suggest, decisions even themselves out the course of a season.

In today’s tech-dominated society, that viewpoint might seem Luddite, but the fundamental question remains: if goal line technology is a positive enhancement, what additional benefits does VAR bring, and is it really in the games best interests? Personally not convinced.

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Re: Video Assistant Referee (VAR) System - Thoughts guys ?

Post by marko69 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:47 pm

Well, it works in Aussie Rules perfectly; a contact sport that is so much faster action than soccer in every department. No issues whatsoever.

I'll go ahead and disagree with the MK 1 eyeball. And I'm not disagreeing regarding MK 1 eyeball v video......, I agree you could put ten people in a room and show them the same video footage of "incidents", and there will be a difference of opinion amongst them regarding the interpretation of the incidents.

But I'm talking about the MK 1 eyeball and the blatantly obvious. I always set the TV to record Hibs cup semis or finals before heading to games. One particular final, a crucial penalty was awarded against Hibs, and as the player went down, I instantly said to one of my buddies, (of course, the obligatory, diving Hearts bstd) but I said, "that was outside the box". Because it was outside the box. Marko, in seat R38 in the East Terrace of Hampden, the OTHER END from where it happened, saw that it was outside the box. My recorded TV evidence later on revealed it was outside the box. YET Craig Thomson who was 15 yards away and in no way at all having anyone blocking his view, awarded a penalty. THATS the stuff I'm talking about.

To be clear, I'm not talking about tackles in the box. You can have Shearer and Lineker both disagreeing with one another on penalty awards so there will always be the interpretation issue in that regard. I'm talking about teams getting penalties and even corners when that clearly shouldn't be the case.

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Re: Video Assistant Referee (VAR) System - Thoughts guys ?

Post by Dubai Blue » Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:44 am

Well personally I love VAR and can't wait for it to be fully implemented. However we need to do away with the need for the ref to review pitch side. If there is a second ref upstairs then let him make the decision within a time limit. This will stop the long delays that we have been seeing.

If a clear decision can't be made within 15-20 seconds then let the game continue with the ref's onfield decision standing.

And sure, if the ref blows for a penalty, surely we can allow the possibility of the off field ref. stopping the game for a review if it's not so obvious.

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Re: Video Assistant Referee (VAR) System - Thoughts guys ?

Post by marko69 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:43 am

Spot on, Dubai. The “man in the booth” is the obvious fine tuning that I’m speaking of. Can’t figure out if it’s just a British stubborn mentality that we can’t do things how others have successfully done things.

Just one thing I want to add on this, then I’ll Fk off and ram a VAR system up ma erse......, but the argument that “it’s been done this way for years, why change it” etc etc......, just watch some 80s footage then some modern footage. The game is miles faster these days. Players are quicker and fitter. You don’t see players pictured with a pint and a smoke a few hours BEFORE kick off anymore. The Refs do need eyes on the back of their heads.

And one final reason....., the ref used to be the most respected bloke on the pitch. Not anymore. Modern players (and some fans) want to smash the refs face in. He needs a level of protection, especially in crucial matches, like play off scenarios.

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Re: Video Assistant Referee (VAR) System - Thoughts guys ?

Post by herforder » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:28 am

Of course a credible case can be made to fit the fact that this technology exists - not sure, however, that it’s use in other sports - in other countries - or providing protection for refs and linos, provide strong enough justification. It’s use might bring clinical certainty, but in so doing it changes the ‘human’ balance of the game that exists between players, officials and supporters. What comes next.......Roboref, Robolino, Robofans. Although, we’ve almost cracked the last one!

There’s also a significant social dimension. VAR will have a radical impact ion post match inquests in bars and pubs up and down the country. Is that wise?!

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Re: Video Assistant Referee (VAR) System - Thoughts guys ?

Post by Domhide » Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:11 pm

Have these VAR supporters never heard of Paralax? Drawing wavy lines on a pitch to determine offside cant work because the truth can only be determined if the eye is perpendicular to the that line. Then there is this ludicrous business of unintentional passback to the goalkeeper. When is a passback unintentional? The other week mr pole was insisting that because The ball had ‘accidentally’ touched Milner a goal should have stood because the scorer could no longer be considered off side. Surely if a player kicks the ball in the direction of his goalkeeper it has to be considered as a passback and penalized. No ref can be tasked with mind reading.

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Re: Video Assistant Referee (VAR) System - Thoughts guys ?

Post by marko69 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:48 pm

My stance, and I’ve made that quite clear above as I’ve re-read what I wrote, is that VAR should be used for blatant instances that could effect the outcome of the game ——-> penalty decisions and sendings off. Takes a few seconds. And GLT is an absolute God-send...... Raking, 35-yard postage stamp goals against the Jambos can maybe count now.

Domhide, to be honest, I can’t remember the last “pass back” incident at Easter Road. It’s such a normal, accepted rule now that most teams/ players abide by it.

Can I just give a quick example of the “man in the booth” used in other countries. Last week I watched Carlton v Collingwood live on the AFL app. The ball was “arguably” touched through the goal by a defensive player (which means 1 point, and not a 6 point goal) ..... commentators exact words were,
“Was that a goal? Let’s see the replay. Aw no, he touched that, that’s only a point.”
Then 6 points went up on the big screen. A ripple of restlessness went round the MCG.
“They’ve gave the goal, Richo, that can’t be right. That’s gotta get reviewed, mate.”
Literally 15 seconds later, 5 points was taken off the big screen leaving the 1 awarded. And when looking at the replay, it was correct.
It works.

Think of a total fanny ref in England..... Mike Dean maybe? Tackle 40 yards out, Mike Dean awards a penalty, ...., guy in the booth has a word right into his head, “That’s a free kick, Mike!” :D
,

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Re: Video Assistant Referee (VAR) System - Thoughts guys ?

Post by marko69 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:54 pm

And think of the extra laughs you could have with arsehole pals!!

Players clipped inches OUTSIDE the box when seen on TV....., and plain to see...... but that obligatory atsehole pal that we ALL have, “Nut, no way, NO WAY! That was INSIDE the box!”
“But you can see it right there on the screen, Dave. That’s what the VAR guys are seeing as well.”
“Nope. Penalty!”
:lol:

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Re: Video Assistant Referee (VAR) System - Thoughts guys ?

Post by Bluemike » Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:08 pm

Your idea of sticking VAR up ya arse sounds the best so far Marko lol.

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Re: Video Assistant Referee (VAR) System - Thoughts guys ?

Post by marko69 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:05 pm

Well, time is ticking on...... no doubt some form of camera technology will be heading in that direction in the years to come. Assisted Rectal Surveillance Equipment.... or , A.R.S.E.

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Re: Video Assistant Referee (VAR) System - Thoughts guys ?

Post by Ricco » Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:53 pm

Tech didn't ruin tennis, cricket or rugby and the horse and kart was tried and tested for years before the car.

We've got to the point now, where with a bit of practice, technology cant be a big benefit. It obviously has to be done in the right way, slowly and in a limited way, in my opinion each team gets one challenge per match and gets another if their challenge was correct, like tennis. One challenge isn't going to ruin the game and all referee mistakes won't be eradicated, but it will allow teams to overturn blatant errors which can cost teams millions of pounds and silverware.

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Re: Video Assistant Referee (VAR) System - Thoughts guys ?

Post by herforder » Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:55 pm

Main beneficiaries of VAR will probably be the media.

Instead of tech - which still relies on a human interface - action to improve the training, fitness and standard of refs/linos to match the modern game is required.

Basic question remains, however, are the instances of critical, incorrect, decisions so great as to justify fundamentally changing the way games are run? Certainly the introduction of VAR will affect the mentality of refs’ approach to managing the game. In the worst case, making them over reliant on the third eye, risk averse and potentially lazy, or fearful of being judged. Still not sure!

Cracking debate, though. :)

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Re: Video Assistant Referee (VAR) System - Thoughts guys ?

Post by Ricco » Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:14 pm

herforder wrote: In the worst case, making them over reliant on the third eye, risk averse and potentially lazy, or fearful of being judged. Still not sure!

Cracking debate, though. :)
Absolutely, can't have it like rugby where every try scored is seemingly checked by the video ref. I'm uncomfortable with the referees being able to ask for help, refs should be there to make a quick on the spot judgement, it should be up to the teams to challenge their call.

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Re: Video Assistant Referee (VAR) System - Thoughts guys ?

Post by Dubai Blue » Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:28 am

Honestly I think there is a deeper issue here. We use technology all around our lives, and it's ubiquitously used for checking and correcting human error everywhere you might care to look.

There can be no doubt that this is a good thing because we as humans suffer from all sorts of biases, in particular perception and cognitive biases as well of course as having quite variable faculties for detection. Finally we are required sometimes to make decisions that we are not always in the best position to be able to make.

In my opinion if a sport doesn't adapt to giving the same level of accuracy as we expect throughout our lives it runs the risk of becoming irrelevant. Of course the older ones of us (maybe myself included) might lament the loss of absolute trust in the ref, jumpers for goalposts &c &c but any sport that doesn't adapt and utilise tech to improve accuracy and fairness will progressively become irrelevant to those whose lives have been given this kind of certainty from day 1.

As the Vogon said: "Resistance is useless"! And if so it's far better to be at the forefront making sure that new tech is welcomed, tested and allowed to evolve into what Marko correctly demonstrates (IMO) will be come invisible quite quickly. In a few years time we will be so accustomed to seeing little VAR corrections in games that we will giggle about how it used to be and our kids (or in my case grandkids) won't believe that it ever had been any different.
Last edited by Dubai Blue on Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:36 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Video Assistant Referee (VAR) System - Thoughts guys ?

Post by Dubai Blue » Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:35 am

Ricco wrote:
herforder wrote: In the worst case, making them over reliant on the third eye, risk averse and potentially lazy, or fearful of being judged. Still not sure!

Cracking debate, though. :)
Absolutely, can't have it like rugby where every try scored is seemingly checked by the video ref. I'm uncomfortable with the referees being able to ask for help, refs should be there to make a quick on the spot judgement, it should be up to the teams to challenge their call.
Ricco, whist I respect your opinion I couldn't agree less about rugby.

What is the point of Rugby? The whole team is fighting to get that weird ball over the line and grounded, (as defined within the rules of the game). Surely we owe it to the teams to be certain of when a try has been scored legally and when it has not. If we decide that it doesn't really matter and we are not going to bother to be as accurate as we can, what is the point of all that throwing the ball about and rucking and scrimmaging that goes on all over the rest of the pitch?

Also note how challenges are used in other sports for other purposes. For example in my pet sport of badminton players get a limited number of line call challenges, with a pretty high number of challenges being sustained. But often the challenges are used when the call isn't really controversial, because the player fancies a short rest or wants to break the action after the opponent has scored a run of points. Much better if an executive is also to quietly be reviewing all the time and can alert the ref in case something needs a second look.

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Re: Video Assistant Referee (VAR) System - Thoughts guys ?

Post by Bluemike » Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:48 am

People say it works in other sports but it depends what you mean by "it works" because for me it most definitely doesnt, ok some decisions are overturned for sure but bloody hell the standing around and waiting for the decision is not as instant as some will have you believe, doesn't matter in Cricket as its a slow, p*ss boring sport anyway but the flow of a football game when perhaps a team has momentum etc will be compromised. It's certainly not for me, why turn the beautiful game into a bloody science.

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Re: Video Assistant Referee (VAR) System - Thoughts guys ?

Post by Dubai Blue » Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:18 am

Bluemike wrote:People say it works in other sports but it depends what you mean by "it works" because for me it most definitely doesnt, ok some decisions are overturned for sure but bloody hell the standing around and waiting for the decision is not as instant as some will have you believe, doesn't matter in Cricket as its a slow, p*ss boring sport anyway but the flow of a football game when perhaps a team has momentum etc will be compromised. It's certainly not for me, why turn the beautiful game into a bloody science.
Mike, I think that's bang on. That's where the refinement is required and that's where the evolution MUST happen. It looks like the powers didn't want to take power away from the onfield ref and that's what is causing the delays. It looks obvious to me that they have to give this power up (partly) and accept that a ref in the stands should have as much power to make a call (even if he advises the ref only). It's the crazy pitch side reviews by the ref that are ridiculous in my view. The ref should be a team not an individual and the ref in the sky should over rule the one on the pitch, when required to do so.

I reckon if they gave the job of refinement to TB.com we would have it sorted very quickly with our collection of viewpoints :-)

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Re: Video Assistant Referee (VAR) System - Thoughts guys ?

Post by Ricco » Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:45 am

Dubai Blue wrote:What is the point of Rugby? The whole team is fighting to get that weird ball over the line and grounded, (as defined within the rules of the game). Surely we owe it to the teams to be certain of when a try has been scored legally and when it has not. If we decide that it doesn't really matter and we are not going to bother to be as accurate as we can, what is the point of all that throwing the ball about and rucking and scrimmaging that goes on all over the rest of the pitch?
I only meant the challenges where it's bloody obvious a try has been scored, it's weak reffing.

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Re: Video Assistant Referee (VAR) System - Thoughts guys ?

Post by Dubai Blue » Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:57 am

Maybe that's the point Ricco. It's obvious to us watching the screen but can it be that the ref can't be so sure from where he is? In this case it should be very quick and easy to confirm.

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Re: Video Assistant Referee (VAR) System - Thoughts guys ?

Post by Ricco » Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:31 pm

Dubai Blue wrote:Maybe that's the point Ricco. It's obvious to us watching the screen but can it be that the ref can't be so sure from where he is? In this case it should be very quick and easy to confirm.
No, I mean obvious to us at home, obvious to the crowd, obvious to the ref, obvious to Stevie Wonder in the stands.

It's a lot better now, but particularly at the start, some referees were so scared of making a mistake, especially when they had a means to check, so some checked everything!

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Re: Video Assistant Referee (VAR) System - Thoughts guys ?

Post by marko69 » Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:03 pm

Cricket, American football...., games where the stopping infinitely outweighs the action, then it’ll always work...... because, who in the crowd cares?

But I’m only using Oz Footy as my case for it because it’s very much more quicker than football/soccer. In fact, the ball CANNOT be intentionally kicked out defensively for an umpire throw in. It’d be a free kick. Players avoid witn a passion and as a result the action is sometimes non stop for lengthy periods of time. So when five players go up for the ball on the goal line and the ball falls through, it takes 15 seconds to decipher how to proceed.

It’s all about opinions but VAR, once perfected to a level, will work for me.

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Re: Video Assistant Referee (VAR) System - Thoughts guys ?

Post by marko69 » Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:06 pm

Just to say also, agree Dubai that the referee looking at a pitch side screen is ludicrous. It actually makes the game look embarrassing.

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