Salary cap ...

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number 9
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Re: Salary cap ...

Post by number 9 » Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:33 pm

Not trying to start an argument Marko, but I think it’s Klug’s job to get the youngsters ready for the first team. After that, the manager has the responsibility to develop those players into regular and effective starters. Just my useless opinion mate. :lol:

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Re: Salary cap ...

Post by number 9 » Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:27 am

Klug talking to the youngsters:
Klug-There are a lot of changes happening boys.
Youngsters-Oh yeah, what’s up boss?
Klug-You’re all gonna have to step up!
Youngsters: Is it because of the celery cap?
Klug-The what???
Youngsters: The celery cap! Are we gonna have to eat more vegetables boss?
Klug-I give up!

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Re: Salary cap ...

Post by Bluemike » Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:49 am

I don't see away fans being allowed next season at all so a boycott won't be an option, just my thoughts

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Re: Salary cap ...

Post by marko69 » Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:58 am

No arguments, 9. Not allowed. Especially on a Sunday. Peace & love to all!

Basically, Lambert already has a job of getting results on the park. Working out who’s ready, what formation, what tactics, what he’s going to say in post match interviews, will he say he’ll leave when not asked. All massive jobs. If he also has to “develop” (in the sense of what develop actually means and be held accountable for that) .... then he’s absolutely no f**king chance.

Oops. Swearing on a Sunday. Sorry.

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Re: Salary cap ...

Post by tangfastic » Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:06 am

marko69 wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 9:57 pm
Definition would be; “At the beginning”. Klug? Otherwise what’s the point of Bryan? On the apparent instruction of Bryan Klug, they can be good enough for making the bench in a senior match. I suppose from then on it’s up to a manager. But I’d say the onus is on Klug to develop the talented youth...... again..... otherwise what’s the point?

In fact, forget the above. Just get rid of Bryan. Useless c*nt.
He must be doing something right as a lot of youngsters here become youth level international players. However, they don’t seem to progress that far at senior level. Going back 15-20 years, we had Dyer, Scowcroft, Wright, Bramble, Bent, Ambrose come through the youth system and play regularly in the PL.
Who have we developed from youth level in recent years who’s gone onto play in the PL? Connor Wickham? And he left in 2011 or 2012. The idea that we’ve got some conveyor belt of an academy churning out future PL stars isn’t correct. We haven’t been doing that for 15-20 years.
Doubtless Klug is doing a good job, but the reputation he and his academy has got is over-rated IMO. I think we cling on to the notion that we’ve got an amazing academy to make us feel better. I wish he’d stop producing players who get into England under 16’s or England under 19’s and produce players that do the business in the first team.
Here’s the ‘good’ news - we don’t have to develop PL talent, just players good enough for League 1. And we don’t need to send our youths on loan to League 1 level - we can give them that experience our selves.

TBH - we’ve got as good a crop of youngsters as we’ve had for years. Woolf, Downes, Lankester, El Mizouni, Dobra, Dozzell - this is maybe not our Golden Generation - maybe Bronze - but they should be given a chance.

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Re: Salary cap ...

Post by Andym » Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:34 am

Bluemike wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:49 am
I don't see away fans being allowed next season at all so a boycott won't be an option, just my thoughts
I think you're right. I actually think it'll be a long time before home fans are allowed in either. The trial at cricket matches has been delayed, the infection rate is very likely to rise with all the holiday traffic and kids being crammed back into classrooms as well as the expected rise when the weather gets colder.

Hopefully we are better placed to survive than many of the smaller clubs who voted for the salary cap.

For what it's worth, my view is that the salary cap was completely unnecessary. The financial fair play system would have been perfectly adequate if regulated properly and meaningful sanctions applied to those who broke the rules.

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Re: Salary cap ...

Post by tangfastic » Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:43 am

Andym wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:34 am
Bluemike wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:49 am
I don't see away fans being allowed next season at all so a boycott won't be an option, just my thoughts
I think you're right. I actually think it'll be a long time before home fans are allowed in either. The trial at cricket matches has been delayed, the infection rate is very likely to rise with all the holiday traffic and kids being crammed back into classrooms as well as the expected rise when the weather gets colder.

Hopefully we are better placed to survive than many of the smaller clubs who voted for the salary cap.

For what it's worth, my view is that the salary cap was completely unnecessary. The financial fair play system would have been perfectly adequate if regulated properly and meaningful sanctions applied to those who broke the rules.
Completely agree. The FFP system was already in place. The EFL have not only mismanaged that system, but now shirked their responsibility by giving the votes to clubs. That’s bullshit - every club will vote on what’s good for themselves, and not what’s good for the game. That’s the EFL’s responsibility.

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Re: Salary cap ...

Post by Bluemike » Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:12 am

tangfastic wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:06 am
marko69 wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 9:57 pm
Definition would be; “At the beginning”. Klug? Otherwise what’s the point of Bryan? On the apparent instruction of Bryan Klug, they can be good enough for making the bench in a senior match. I suppose from then on it’s up to a manager. But I’d say the onus is on Klug to develop the talented youth...... again..... otherwise what’s the point?

In fact, forget the above. Just get rid of Bryan. Useless c*nt.
He must be doing something right as a lot of youngsters here become youth level international players. However, they don’t seem to progress that far at senior level. Going back 15-20 years, we had Dyer, Scowcroft, Wright, Bramble, Bent, Ambrose come through the youth system and play regularly in the PL.
Who have we developed from youth level in recent years who’s gone onto play in the PL? Connor Wickham? And he left in 2011 or 2012. The idea that we’ve got some conveyor belt of an academy churning out future PL stars isn’t correct. We haven’t been doing that for 15-20 years.
Doubtless Klug is doing a good job, but the reputation he and his academy has got is over-rated IMO. I think we cling on to the notion that we’ve got an amazing academy to make us feel better. I wish he’d stop producing players who get into England under 16’s or England under 19’s and produce players that do the business in the first team.
Here’s the ‘good’ news - we don’t have to develop PL talent, just players good enough for League 1. And we don’t need to send our youths on loan to League 1 level - we can give them that experience our selves.

TBH - we’ve got as good a crop of youngsters as we’ve had for years. Woolf, Downes, Lankester, El Mizouni, Dobra, Dozzell - this is maybe not our Golden Generation - maybe Bronze - but they should be given a chance.
But surely an academy doesn't have to just turn out Premier league talent ? A crop of players good enough for even the Championship brings in good money for a club of our standing, we've turned out a lot of those and certainly within the last 10-15 years too, Rhodes, Garvan, Marriott, Haynes, Wickham to name but a few, we've also produced players who barely out of nappies have gone for a Million plus (Knight & Flores) so I don't agree it's dried up to a poor level in recent times. I think our academy is very very good, players like Ben Morris, Andre Dozzell have played at England level and while they have not progressed due to injury or whatever are still products of it, Let's not forget Klug left for what 2/3 years too ? I think the crop we have now are very good talents indeed and hopefully they will be the ones to drag us out of this abyss we find ourselves in.

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Re: Salary cap ...

Post by marko69 » Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:02 pm

Seriously, I wasn’t really raising doubts about Klug. Was just raising concern over Lambert being responsible for developing talent. Who knows, maybe he does, which is totally cool. For me, I’d rather he concentrated on developed pro’s and get the great ITFC out of League One.

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Re: Salary cap ...

Post by number 9 » Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:15 pm

It's my fault Marko. :lol:

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Re: Salary cap ...

Post by hallamblue » Sun Aug 09, 2020 9:41 pm

Yer both sacked! :lol:

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Re: Salary cap ...

Post by tangfastic » Mon Aug 10, 2020 10:35 am

Bluemike wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:12 am
tangfastic wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:06 am
marko69 wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 9:57 pm
Definition would be; “At the beginning”. Klug? Otherwise what’s the point of Bryan? On the apparent instruction of Bryan Klug, they can be good enough for making the bench in a senior match. I suppose from then on it’s up to a manager. But I’d say the onus is on Klug to develop the talented youth...... again..... otherwise what’s the point?

In fact, forget the above. Just get rid of Bryan. Useless c*nt.
He must be doing something right as a lot of youngsters here become youth level international players. However, they don’t seem to progress that far at senior level. Going back 15-20 years, we had Dyer, Scowcroft, Wright, Bramble, Bent, Ambrose come through the youth system and play regularly in the PL.
Who have we developed from youth level in recent years who’s gone onto play in the PL? Connor Wickham? And he left in 2011 or 2012. The idea that we’ve got some conveyor belt of an academy churning out future PL stars isn’t correct. We haven’t been doing that for 15-20 years.
Doubtless Klug is doing a good job, but the reputation he and his academy has got is over-rated IMO. I think we cling on to the notion that we’ve got an amazing academy to make us feel better. I wish he’d stop producing players who get into England under 16’s or England under 19’s and produce players that do the business in the first team.
Here’s the ‘good’ news - we don’t have to develop PL talent, just players good enough for League 1. And we don’t need to send our youths on loan to League 1 level - we can give them that experience our selves.

TBH - we’ve got as good a crop of youngsters as we’ve had for years. Woolf, Downes, Lankester, El Mizouni, Dobra, Dozzell - this is maybe not our Golden Generation - maybe Bronze - but they should be given a chance.
But surely an academy doesn't have to just turn out Premier league talent ? A crop of players good enough for even the Championship brings in good money for a club of our standing, we've turned out a lot of those and certainly within the last 10-15 years too, Rhodes, Garvan, Marriott, Haynes, Wickham to name but a few, we've also produced players who barely out of nappies have gone for a Million plus (Knight & Flores) so I don't agree it's dried up to a poor level in recent times. I think our academy is very very good, players like Ben Morris, Andre Dozzell have played at England level and while they have not progressed due to injury or whatever are still products of it, Let's not forget Klug left for what 2/3 years too ? I think the crop we have now are very good talents indeed and hopefully they will be the ones to drag us out of this abyss we find ourselves in.
No, the academy doesn’t need to churn out PL talent, but it would be a barometer of how good the academy is. TBH - the large majority of the promising youngsters who make it to the first team get released for free and head downwards through the leagues. Very rarely upwards. And we rarely make money from them. That’s not necessarily Klug’s fault. Is there a disconnect between first team and academy? Personally, I would rather have a Downes or Woolf who hardly get on England age group international level radar, but become important first team regulars, rather than a Dozzell or Bowditch who made England squads
and then their careers level off.
I’m not trying to rubbish the academy and I’d love the kids to play a big part in moving upwards. I’m just being realistic. I mean now we need a big striker, a CB and a LB. Can we dip into the academy for those? No, because we haven’t got any good enough at the moment. When KVY was injured, could we dip into the academy for a RB? No, because none were good enough. On the other hand we’ve got so many academy central midfielders- Dobra, El Mizouni, Dozzell, even Bishop ( excluding Downes whos now our best player) who could play in a central midfield role, yet they’d be fighting for one place. So while some of these players could well make an impact we can’t rely on the academy - we’d still have to recruit player’s elsewhere.

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Re: Salary cap ...

Post by marko69 » Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:20 am

Yes, my view (and opinion) from afar is exactly everything you’ve typed up there, Tang. Well worded.

It’s never an attack on Bryan...... it’s a sort of 🤷‍♂️ type of feeling. Especially when the conv does turn towards recruitment..... and by that, meaning a longer term of recruitment. Just cannot rely on it at all.
Not saying permanent recruitment from the academy because that doesn’t exist anymore when they’re good.
Actually can’t believe Flynn Downes is still at the club. Why’s he not been snapped up by Brentford?

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Re: Salary cap ...

Post by hallamblue » Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:35 am

Two things from my perspective. :

1) Maybe the academy IS churning out young players that are good enough for the senior squad....maybe it’s the managers who won’t take the risk, ( or in football generally they don’t get the time to build something meaningful).


Linked .....

2) It’s a results , money driven “industry”. Little wonder Brentford decided to ditch their academy and go a different route. It simply takes too long to nurture young players to a given level, and costs £m’s....only for big clubs to virtually steal them off you. Why bother?

But you’re right, we are now in many ways out of the money driven limelight of the CC/ PL , and perhaps can take Klug kids to that next level....in OUR first team squad. If they’re good enough they’ll thrive.....if not, we sell them or let them leave. But until we stop paying stupid money for wages for these journeyman has beens ( aka the likes of Judge, Huws, Edwards, Keane, Roberts, ) we can’t recruit new players who are still relatively young, but are just that bit ahead of our own kids.

I think the latter is Town’s plan but the salary cap and CoVid outfall has brought it all forward....problem is we have a a bloated squad , half of which on still contracted until next season. I’m expecting a mass clear out then.
Last edited by hallamblue on Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Salary cap ...

Post by Bluemike » Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:39 am

The academy has produced a CB in Woolfy and 2 LB in Kenlock and Clements, Kenlock seemed the answer but then fell out of favour to a not much better defensively Garbutt, Clements probably wasn't ready. I think the issues suggested about us not being able to dip into the academy is relevant to all 92 clubs tbh, i think the number of kids we give chances to is better than most.

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Re: Salary cap ...

Post by hallamblue » Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:41 am

I’d say that’s been true over the last couple of years, because that was the change of direction Town decided to take. But up until then I don’t think many of our youngsters really got a look in.

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Re: Salary cap ...

Post by marko69 » Mon Aug 10, 2020 12:15 pm

Oh dear...... I’m going to sound like the argumentative git here, Hallam. The “development” debate with 9...... (but we just cowbelled the reaper, high 5’d and were sound) ..... but your comment of players being good enough but managers not playing them? I know that’s your opinion, but how accurate do you think that is?
Are you mainly speaking of stubborn gits like Mick McCarthy? Could even add Messiah Keane to that with Rhodes?

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Re: Salary cap ...

Post by Bluemike » Mon Aug 10, 2020 12:31 pm

We produced another LB too in Nydam and 2 strikers in Folami and Morris, all Three suffering season ending serious injuries, whether they would go on to prove themselves to be good enough is debatable but they all dabbled with the first team prior to their injuries.

Personally I don't believe it is realistic to have a problem spot in the team and then just plucking a kid from the academy to fill that hole, how a academy works is you nurture a group of kids through in the hope you find some stars of the future but in truth you would like to see at least Two or Three real talents burst through, this we appear to have done in Downes, Woolfy, Dobra and Lankester, time will tell on the latter duo but that's a third of a team right there from one batch of academy graduates, others will make it at a lower level and some will fade away, it's how it works and how it's always worked.

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Re: Salary cap ...

Post by hallamblue » Mon Aug 10, 2020 1:45 pm

marko69 wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 12:15 pm
Oh dear...... I’m going to sound like the argumentative git here, Hallam. The “development” debate with 9...... (but we just cowbelled the reaper, high 5’d and were sound) ..... but your comment of players being good enough but managers not playing them? I know that’s your opinion, but how accurate do you think that is?
Are you mainly speaking of stubborn gits like Mick McCarthy? Could even add Messiah Keane to that with Rhodes?
I was really asking the question . Is it possible that our youngsters don’t progress to senior squad because managers won’t take that risk ?


... and yes you are an argumentative git 😂( sometimes) x

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Re: Salary cap ...

Post by marko69 » Mon Aug 10, 2020 2:49 pm

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Re: Salary cap ...

Post by Bluemike » Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:51 pm

:lol:

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Re: Salary cap ...

Post by number 9 » Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:27 pm

Just for you Marko...

https://youtu.be/cVsQLlk-T0s (sorry about the Ads)

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Re: Salary cap ...

Post by marko69 » Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:43 pm

number 9 wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:27 pm
Just for you Marko...

https://youtu.be/cVsQLlk-T0s (sorry about the Ads)
Said this before but that will NEVER get old. Probably my favourite ever YouTube video. Literally tears running down face when viewed again after a year.
🤘

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Re: Salary cap ...

Post by hallamblue » Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:42 pm

The EADT have done a bit of fleshing out of the EFLs salary cap and how it’s likely to affect Town . I dare say our competitors in league one will be able to work out our financial limitations now , masking it easier for them to out bid us fir players . It’s the size of our squad that’s killing us ..... and other clubs will know it ....Bloody depressing tbh !


https://www.eadt.co.uk/sport/league-one ... -1-6785446

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Re: Salary cap ...

Post by tangfastic » Tue Aug 11, 2020 7:59 am

hallamblue wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:42 pm
The EADT have done a bit of fleshing out of the EFLs salary cap and how it’s likely to affect Town . I dare say our competitors in league one will be able to work out our financial limitations now , masking it easier for them to out bid us fir players . It’s the size of our squad that’s killing us ..... and other clubs will know it ....Bloody depressing tbh !


https://www.eadt.co.uk/sport/league-one ... -1-6785446
Who knows.... with so many players out of contract next summer.... maybe their form will improve. So often, players suddenly become world beaters when they want to win a contract or put themselves in the shop window.

We’ll just have to take it on the chin. A lot more emphasis on Lambert and his coaching staff to deliver. I genuinely thought shrewd recruitment would be the key for us this season as, based on last season, Lambert really screwed up with managing the squad and he was tactically out-thought. Looks like we’re going to rely more on Lambert’s talent as a manager.

I read that the salary cap doesn’t take into account managerial and coaching staff. Could we spend the excess cash on better coaches? Do our players actually improve as players when they arrive here? Look at Hurst’s acquisitions. For example, I think if we sold players like Jackson or Toto or Donacien or Nolan, they would be sold for a lot less than we bought them for.

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Re: Salary cap ...

Post by tangfastic » Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:21 am

Bluemike wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 12:31 pm
We produced another LB too in Nydam and 2 strikers in Folami and Morris, all Three suffering season ending serious injuries, whether they would go on to prove themselves to be good enough is debatable but they all dabbled with the first team prior to their injuries.

Personally I don't believe it is realistic to have a problem spot in the team and then just plucking a kid from the academy to fill that hole, how a academy works is you nurture a group of kids through in the hope you find some stars of the future but in truth you would like to see at least Two or Three real talents burst through, this we appear to have done in Downes, Woolfy, Dobra and Lankester, time will tell on the latter duo but that's a third of a team right there from one batch of academy graduates, others will make it at a lower level and some will fade away, it's how it works and how it's always worked.
I agree that it’s only a few are likely to make it. Downes and Woolf becoming regulars is actually good going for us. Compared to the last 15 years or so, it’s very rare our academy kids go on to be regulars and important team players. I’d like to think Dobra, El Mizouni and Lankester could hopefully play a major part, too. Realistically, though, there’s only a few going to make it.
It’s just that some fans think you can just pluck a kid out of the 23’s and they can do the job. You can’t- It takes time. With Downes and Woolf they had successful loans before they made it here.

From a business point of view, it does make me wonder how many successful academy players can we produce to justify the academy? It isn’t cheap to run. That’s why I’m less bothered if a Ben Knights goes for a million quid at age 15 or 16. It helps pay for the academy and there’s no guarantee that the kid will make it here. A million quid is worth two KVY’s ( we paid 500 k for him). We’ve brought in more money from those 15 or 16 year olds who were years away from the first team than we have for kids who’ve made it into the first team.

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Re: Salary cap ...

Post by marko69 » Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:08 am

tangfastic wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:21 am
We’ve brought in more money from those 15 or 16 year olds who were years away from the first team than we have for kids who’ve made it into the first team.
Holy sh*t! Really? :shock: I did not realise that. Over what period of time you going back? Back as far as Wickham?

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Re: Salary cap ...

Post by tangfastic » Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:39 am

marko69 wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:08 am
tangfastic wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:21 am
We’ve brought in more money from those 15 or 16 year olds who were years away from the first team than we have for kids who’ve made it into the first team.
Holy sh*t! Really? :shock: I did not realise that. Over what period of time you going back? Back as far as Wickham?
Marko, let me think.

From Wickhams time when he left in 2011.

Tommy smith, released.
Jack Marriott, released.
Luke Hyam - released.
Jaime peters- released.
Josh Emmanuel - released.
Ronan Murray - released.
Josh Carson - released
Jack Ainsley - released
Byron Lawrence - released.
Tom Eastman - released
Adam McDonnell - released

These are players who were in the academy and played league games. There’s probably more who played meaningless cup games.

I can’t think of one ex-academy player since Wickham who played in the first team who went for money.

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Re: Salary cap ...

Post by Bluemike » Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:18 pm

Jordan Rhodes ?

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Re: Salary cap ...

Post by tangfastic » Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:23 pm

Bluemike wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:18 pm
Jordan Rhodes ?
He left before Wickham in 2009. According to wiki 350 k plus add-ons.

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