The Standard of Refereeing Debate post Sunderland

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The Standard of Refereeing Debate post Sunderland

Post by Bluemike » Thu Nov 05, 2020 11:29 am

I'm old school, I don't want any technology in football at all and never will. I grew up with the never ending discussions about how Clive Thomas robbed us of an FA Cup semi final win but its what has made our great game what it is, all people bloody well talk about is a screen with coloured lines on it, I mean ffs really, it has to be down to human error, bring back the days where linesman actually serve a purpose too, they used to hold some power, that for me is the way forward.

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Re: Sunderland AFC vs Ipswich Town Preview & Matchday Thread

Post by marko69 » Thu Nov 05, 2020 11:47 am

AzzurroMark wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 10:24 am
(which their player blazed over) .
Not that it matters in this conversation....., but he hit the bar!
1/ Good enough advantage to create that.....

And 2/ HOLY?

But that’s for another day, (hopefully never) when Tomas is found out.

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Re: Sunderland AFC vs Ipswich Town Preview & Matchday Thread

Post by marko69 » Thu Nov 05, 2020 11:52 am

Bluemike wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 11:29 am
I'm old school, I don't want any technology in football at all and never will. I grew up with the never ending discussions about how Clive Thomas robbed us of an FA Cup semi final win but its what has made our great game what it is, all people bloody well talk about is a screen with coloured lines on it, I mean ffs really, it has to be down to human error, bring back the days where linesman actually serve a purpose too, they used to hold some power, that for me is the way forward.
Strangely, the linesmen are actually getting better as time goes on. The amount of correct tight offside decisions definitely outweigh the incorrect these days.

Refs obviously have more decisions to make, but definitely closer to 50/50 with that mob. Opinion of course.

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Re: Sunderland AFC vs Ipswich Town Preview & Matchday Thread

Post by Bluemike » Thu Nov 05, 2020 1:27 pm

marko69 wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 11:47 am
AzzurroMark wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 10:24 am
(which their player blazed over) .
Not that it matters in this conversation....., but he hit the bar!
1/ Good enough advantage to create that.....

And 2/ HOLY?

But that’s for another day, (hopefully never) when Tomas is found out.
Is this the same Holy who's kept 5 consecutive clean sheets at home and pulled off a worldy against Crewe? 😃

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Re: Sunderland AFC vs Ipswich Town Preview & Matchday Thread

Post by rossi » Thu Nov 05, 2020 1:36 pm

goldandblack wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 4:53 pm
hallamblue wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 2:32 pm
Thing is though rossi, why does professional football have to tolerate sub standard referees? These individuals have no place in the modern game at the Professional level - IMHO of course!
Hi Lis, hope all's well with your good self and the family.

the big answer to this is the lack of folk wanting to become referees, in the last 10/15 yrs because the agro they get from players, managers, and fans in Saturday and Sunday local grassroot leagues,

I attend a local referee's annual AGM and some of the physical and abuse they are reporting is tremendous, most of these matches a 3rd of the matches don't have a referee, and over half don't have linesmen,

So the answer is if you had say 1,000 new referees in training (if your lucky) probably only 20/30 will make it to a top standard, so as you go down the leagues the standards drop, I've been watching non league footie lately and you might as well not have ref or linesmen.
Back in the day when we had over 5,000 in training probably 100/150 of the best got to the top,

So really its all our fault these officials are not up to standard, sign of the times aye and a lack of respect.
I pretty much agree with G&B, but think it goes even farther than this.

It's down to supply and demand, and I think there are just not enough good referees (and linesmen) around. I don't know how much L1 officials get paid, but I'm betting it's not very much. So those who are any good get promoted up the Leagues and earn better money, those that don't are either crap and know it and just content to pick up their tab, else they decide they would earn more stacking supermarket trolleys and leave.

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Re: Sunderland AFC vs Ipswich Town Preview & Matchday Thread

Post by Ricco » Thu Nov 05, 2020 1:42 pm

Bluemike wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 11:29 am
I'm old school, I don't want any technology in football at all and never will. I grew up with the never ending discussions about how Clive Thomas robbed us of an FA Cup semi final win but its what has made our great game what it is, all people bloody well talk about is a screen with coloured lines on it, I mean ffs really, it has to be down to human error, bring back the days where linesman actually serve a purpose too, they used to hold some power, that for me is the way forward.
I guess the thing is that people could accept things back then because they had to, there was no other way, no possible technology.

Don't you think that as technology is increasingly used successfully in other sports in to the future, that if football did step back to no technology that the outcries after every controversy would just become larger and larger, and spectators would get more an more frustrated?

We'll never get back to 1975, because technology is at the level it is at now and will only become more capable. It's used truly horrifically at the moment, but it's not going away and can only improve, I'd rather have conversations about how it can be implemented and improved rather than talking about the green grass of yesteryear.

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Re: Sunderland AFC vs Ipswich Town Preview & Matchday Thread

Post by tangfastic » Thu Nov 05, 2020 1:46 pm

I do remember reading somewhere last season after a game where we were ‘cheated’ that L1 refs were getting paid as low as 80 quid a game. That does seem hard to believe. Whatever the amount - it’s going to be peanuts and hardly worth the hassle of getting abuse from the terraces and online abuse.

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Re: Sunderland AFC vs Ipswich Town Preview & Matchday Thread

Post by AzzurroMark » Thu Nov 05, 2020 2:07 pm

marko69 wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 11:47 am
AzzurroMark wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 10:24 am
(which their player blazed over) .

Not that it matters in this conversation....., but he hit the bar
!
1/ Good enough advantage to create that.....

And 2/ HOLY?

But that’s for another day, (hopefully never) when Tomas is found out.
Poetic licence Marko :wink: :lol: :lol: .

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Re: Sunderland AFC vs Ipswich Town Preview & Matchday Thread

Post by Bluemike » Thu Nov 05, 2020 3:51 pm

tangfastic wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 1:46 pm
I do remember reading somewhere last season after a game where we were ‘cheated’ that L1 refs were getting paid as low as 80 quid a game. That does seem hard to believe. Whatever the amount - it’s going to be peanuts and hardly worth the hassle of getting abuse from the terraces and online abuse.
Some of the fuckers we've had recently don't deserve 80pence let alone £80

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Re: Sunderland AFC vs Ipswich Town Preview & Matchday Thread

Post by Bluemike » Thu Nov 05, 2020 3:54 pm

Ricco wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 1:42 pm
Bluemike wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 11:29 am
I'm old school, I don't want any technology in football at all and never will. I grew up with the never ending discussions about how Clive Thomas robbed us of an FA Cup semi final win but its what has made our great game what it is, all people bloody well talk about is a screen with coloured lines on it, I mean ffs really, it has to be down to human error, bring back the days where linesman actually serve a purpose too, they used to hold some power, that for me is the way forward.
I guess the thing is that people could accept things back then because they had to, there was no other way, no possible technology.

Don't you think that as technology is increasingly used successfully in other sports in to the future, that if football did step back to no technology that the outcries after every controversy would just become larger and larger, and spectators would get more an more frustrated?

We'll never get back to 1975, because technology is at the level it is at now and will only become more capable. It's used truly horrifically at the moment, but it's not going away and can only improve, I'd rather have conversations about how it can be implemented and improved rather than talking about the green grass of yesteryear.
And that's why the game was so much more enjoyable back then, I hear people at work all the time saying how they either don't bother with Football on the TV now or how they got so fed up with crap decisions that they turned it off, heard it again today the farcical decision in the Chelsea game. You are correct in that it probably won't go away, I wouldn't say the same for thousands of fans who could drift away, myself included.

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Re: Sunderland AFC vs Ipswich Town Preview & Matchday Thread

Post by Ricco » Thu Nov 05, 2020 4:40 pm

Bluemike wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 3:54 pm
And that's why the game was so much more enjoyable back then, I hear people at work all the time saying how they either don't bother with Football on the TV now or how they got so fed up with crap decisions that they turned it off, heard it again today the farcical decision in the Chelsea game. You are correct in that it probably won't go away, I wouldn't say the same for thousands of fans who could drift away, myself included.
Well that is a pretty sad to hear. I think football is a complete mess globally, perhaps because it is so global and encapsulates so many cultures, that you can't make the changes needed.

I started watching and enjoying rugby more than football about 20 years ago... technology had been implemented successfully, the financial side of the game had largely be controlled more successfully, but the largest thing for me I think was the fans and the players.

The fans can sit next to opposition fans without basically vomiting with rage and abuse, I've seen too many football fans turn up and not even watch a minute of the game, they've got such massive inferiority complexes that they have to stage fake wars with opposition fans to feel vaguely adequate.

The players are probably worse, probably not their fault as such, but they'd rather get 100,000 likes by dancing around in a pink skirt on TikTok than win a local derby, unbelievably narcissistic almost to a man at higher levels, slightly better at Town's level, but it doesn't make players and teams very likeable, add that to the turnover of players and you don't feel such a connection with the team these days.

Don't get me started on diving and lack of respect for referees, football has only itself to blame for that, it's easy to put a stop to, rugby and other sports have done it. Role models? Unbelievable, I would rather my kids got in to Rugby than Football and that's a tragic thing to say, the game is so broken.

Well that turned in to a positive moan, hopefully the coronavirus bankrupts every football association everywhere and we have to start from scratch!

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Re: Sunderland AFC vs Ipswich Town Preview & Matchday Thread

Post by number 9 » Thu Nov 05, 2020 5:36 pm

I don't wanna start a fight here, but sh*t decisions by referees are exactly why technology was introduced. Sure, it has changed the game and there are still errors...but there's more accountability for the refs to get it right now. If some refs are only getting 80-quid a match, it wouldn't take much to bribe them would it? "I'll give you 200-quid and a Big Mac if you give us a few calls?" I know the examples of monumental errors have been used millions of times, but how disgraceful was that Maradona "Hand of God' goal or the Frank Lampard disallowed goal against Germany even though the ball was a full-yard across the line?

Further, there's no ref (no matter what league he's in) who has the visual capability to get every offside call right. In fact, I'm sure the percentage of correct calls was less than 50 percent before VAR. It's also very unlikely that refs can see fouls or hand balls correctly without technology. Most of the hiccups with VAR have been due to human error anyway! With proper mitigation of technology, sports will benefit in the long run and I for one want the ref's decisions to be correct.

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Re: Sunderland AFC vs Ipswich Town Preview & Matchday Thread

Post by Ando » Thu Nov 05, 2020 6:37 pm

Anyone who thought Town were hard done by, should have a look at the Nani sending off in the States and it was after the ref went to VAR.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiM0sIf6Caw

For me football is losing its way.

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Re: Sunderland AFC vs Ipswich Town Preview & Matchday Thread

Post by Steve and Jo » Thu Nov 05, 2020 6:43 pm

Can talk about VAR until blue in the face. Problem being whether sitting in a nice warm and cosy room watching a screen to being out there on the field with a whistle in your mouth. It comes down to opinions. Especially with penalties.

They cannot even get Offside right (Liverpool versus Everton) Or Sending offs right.
Getting back to the Sunderland and Ipswich game. Watched the highlights on the Sky EFL show and the Plymouth manager said its no penalty. Its a joke of a decision.

Marko one thing like to say possibly happen about Holy and the ball striking the woodwork. To me it looked possibly like the ref blew up straight away. Just looks like he couldn't wait to hear the noise of his whistle, if this is true then Holy would stop. Whatever, joke decision, joke referee

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Re: Sunderland AFC vs Ipswich Town Preview & Matchday Thread

Post by Bluemike » Thu Nov 05, 2020 7:10 pm

Exactly Ando, sadly nobody will EVER convince me its the way forward. Another thing for me is this, Football should be the same at all levels, if VAR is in the Prem it should be in bloody league One too, it has sod all to do with getting decisions right, it is all about money, you can't have technology in one league and not ion others, that shows it up for what it is, a total error ridden sham.

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Re: Sunderland AFC vs Ipswich Town Preview & Matchday Thread

Post by hallamblue » Thu Nov 05, 2020 7:43 pm

I see the red card decision re Dozzell has been upheld by the FA. Do these w*nkers ever go against refs decisions?

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Re: Sunderland AFC vs Ipswich Town Preview & Matchday Thread

Post by marko69 » Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:24 pm

Ricco wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 4:40 pm
Bluemike wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 3:54 pm
And that's why the game was so much more enjoyable back then, I hear people at work all the time saying how they either don't bother with Football on the TV now or how they got so fed up with crap decisions that they turned it off, heard it again today the farcical decision in the Chelsea game. You are correct in that it probably won't go away, I wouldn't say the same for thousands of fans who could drift away, myself included.
Well that is a pretty sad to hear. I think football is a complete mess globally, perhaps because it is so global and encapsulates so many cultures, that you can't make the changes needed.

I started watching and enjoying rugby more than football about 20 years ago... technology had been implemented successfully, the financial side of the game had largely be controlled more successfully, but the largest thing for me I think was the fans and the players.

The fans can sit next to opposition fans without basically vomiting with rage and abuse, I've seen too many football fans turn up and not even watch a minute of the game, they've got such massive inferiority complexes that they have to stage fake wars with opposition fans to feel vaguely adequate.

The players are probably worse, probably not their fault as such, but they'd rather get 100,000 likes by dancing around in a pink skirt on TikTok than win a local derby, unbelievably narcissistic almost to a man at higher levels, slightly better at Town's level, but it doesn't make players and teams very likeable, add that to the turnover of players and you don't feel such a connection with the team these days.

Don't get me started on diving and lack of respect for referees, football has only itself to blame for that, it's easy to put a stop to, rugby and other sports have done it. Role models? Unbelievable, I would rather my kids got in to Rugby than Football and that's a tragic thing to say, the game is so broken.

Well that turned in to a positive moan, hopefully the coronavirus bankrupts every football association everywhere and we have to start from scratch!
I’d like to nominate Ricco as my personal writer so I don’t need to post anymore.
On your page with every word of that post except change rugby for Aussie Rules.

And the part about “losing connection” ..... understand that perfectly. Still love the Cabbage & Ribs but my feeling of connection was way stronger 80s/90s.
After France 98 and players really started cheating....... downhill from then. Commentators then joined in with “he should’ve fell over there ....” ——> that was when I decided to watch tv football less.
Just Shyte.

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Re: Sunderland AFC vs Ipswich Town Preview & Matchday Thread

Post by marko69 » Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:27 pm

Just to add before Saint Jude reminds us........ maradona was cheating in 86, we know!

But that doesn’t count!

BOOM TISH!!

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Re: Sunderland AFC vs Ipswich Town Preview & Matchday Thread

Post by Ricco » Thu Nov 05, 2020 10:09 pm

marko69 wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:24 pm
On your page with every word of that post except change rugby for Aussie Rules.
I didn't realise you could really even watch that over here! I've never seen more than a 2 minute highlight of Aussie Rusles, maybe I'll check it out!!

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Re: Sunderland AFC vs Ipswich Town Preview & Matchday Thread

Post by marko69 » Thu Nov 05, 2020 10:22 pm

It’s on BTSports, Ricco. But the season has just finished. Richmond Tigers crowned Champions two Saturdays ago, 24th Oct.
I lived in Oz for 6 years in my distant past and it was a large part of my life when there.
Best sport on the planet by a country mile.
Opinion of course! 🤦‍♂️

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Re: Sunderland AFC vs Ipswich Town Preview & Matchday Thread

Post by hallamblue » Thu Nov 05, 2020 10:50 pm

I see that prat if ref has “ previous” ..... tell me he’s not bent !

https://www.sunderlandecho.com/sport/fo ... raw-488140

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Re: Sunderland AFC vs Ipswich Town Preview & Matchday Thread

Post by Charnwood » Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:22 am

Whatever we think of VAR it works well in Rugby Union and should work well in football. There’s little wrong with the technology but at the moment everything wrong with referees interpretation of the rules.

Player cheating has become widespread, VAR should help reduce this, goal line technology is good, we just need more clarity on offsides and handballs which is where most contentious decisions are found.

It shouldn’t be possible to be offside by a toenail. and advantage should always be given to the attacker with level being onside. Handballs should be deliberate and a clear definition of how far the penalised player has to be from the player who last touched the ball.

If only we could improve interpretation of the rules and speed up making decisions, this should improve our game and help stamp out cheating.

Don’t give up on it yet, we just need better trained referees, especially those watching the screens and advising the man on the pitch some of whom also need better training so we have more consistency.

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Re: Sunderland AFC vs Ipswich Town Preview & Matchday Thread

Post by Andym » Fri Nov 06, 2020 9:03 am

Charnwood wrote:
Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:22 am
Whatever we think of VAR it works well in Rugby Union and should work well in football. There’s little wrong with the technology but at the moment everything wrong with referees interpretation of the rules.

Player cheating has become widespread, VAR should help reduce this, goal line technology is good, we just need more clarity on offsides and handballs which is where most contentious decisions are found.

It shouldn’t be possible to be offside by a toenail. and advantage should always be given to the attacker with level being onside. Handballs should be deliberate and a clear definition of how far the penalised player has to be from the player who last touched the ball.

If only we could improve interpretation of the rules and speed up making decisions, this should improve our game and help stamp out cheating.

Don’t give up on it yet, we just need better trained referees, especially those watching the screens and advising the man on the pitch some of whom also need better training so we have more consistency.
I agree with all that. The rules are there essentially to stop cheating. The handball rule exists to stop you deliberately stopping the ball with your hand. The offside rule was there to stop goal hanging.....although some refs should be hanged from the crossbar.... If you don't gain an advantage by being offside (like having your foreskin nearer the girl line than the defender's scrotum) then it really shouldn't rule out a goal.

We are probably all to blame for this in our demand for consistency. The only way to achieve consistency is to remove every element of interpretation from the rules. So we end up with a situation where if the ball hits your arm, it's handball. No question, no room for interpretation. Yes or no. And the rule becomes stupid, the game becomes all the worse.

I would argue the same has happened with the Dozzell red card. Are all 2 footed tackles worse than all 1 footed footed tackles? No. But referees are supposed to issue a red card in the name of consistency. Our game us bring ruined, not by VAR but the demand for consistency, elimination of common sense, interpretation and discretion, and of course the buffoons who scrutinise the VAR. But it could work well if allowed to.

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Re: Sunderland AFC vs Ipswich Town Preview & Matchday Thread

Post by tangfastic » Fri Nov 06, 2020 9:13 am

Charnwood wrote:
Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:22 am
Whatever we think of VAR it works well in Rugby Union and should work well in football. There’s little wrong with the technology but at the moment everything wrong with referees interpretation of the rules.

Player cheating has become widespread, VAR should help reduce this, goal line technology is good, we just need more clarity on offsides and handballs which is where most contentious decisions are found.

It shouldn’t be possible to be offside by a toenail. and advantage should always be given to the attacker with level being onside. Handballs should be deliberate and a clear definition of how far the penalised player has to be from the player who last touched the ball.

If only we could improve interpretation of the rules and speed up making decisions, this should improve our game and help stamp out cheating.

Don’t give up on it yet, we just need better trained referees, especially those watching the screens and advising the man on the pitch some of whom also need better training so we have more consistency.
Agreed.... offsides should never be given for such small margins. However, with the technology available, I can’t see how they will go back to a more common sense approach. No attacker or defender can judge margins that small. I think the law makers should step back a few paces and ask why the offside laws were introduced in the first place. Probably to stop attackers being miles offside and hanging around the penalty area. Not because they’re a hair’s breath further than a defender when the ball is kicked.
The handball rules seem to be getting increasingly more crazy season by season. No one would worry if the ball inadvertently hits a defenders knee or chest or face at short distance when they have no time to get out of the way - but if it hits their hand or arm in those situations, then it’s a penalty. Arms and hands are part of the human body and they’re needed to run and twist and turn and balance. I’m not sure what defenders are supposed to do... tuck their arms in and waddle around like penguins.

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Re: Sunderland AFC vs Ipswich Town Preview & Matchday Thread

Post by marko69 » Fri Nov 06, 2020 10:02 am

tangfastic wrote:
Fri Nov 06, 2020 9:13 am
I’m not sure what defenders are supposed to do... tuck their arms in and waddle around like penguins.
That’d get attendances up when the doors are open again. Can’t speak for everyone but I’d definitely pay to see that.

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Re: Sunderland AFC vs Ipswich Town Preview & Matchday Thread

Post by Bluemike » Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:39 pm

Incredible, Mike Jones the head of referees and other referees tell Lambert It wasn't a Red against Andre Dozzell and yet it still stands, who's on this effing panel. And furthermore what I knew already, the bloody Ref who gave the penalty against Toto at Lincoln admits it wasn't a penalty, when will our luck f**king change!!!

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Re: Sunderland AFC vs Ipswich Town Preview & Matchday Thread

Post by hallamblue » Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:22 pm

They’re bringing the game into disrepute really aren’t they .
What joke the whole game has become now

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Re: Sunderland AFC vs Ipswich Town Preview & Matchday Thread

Post by Charnwood » Fri Nov 06, 2020 4:53 pm

I think at the higher levels of the game (VAR excluded) the standard of refereeing has definitely improved compared with 10 years ago and there are far fewer referee clangers than we used to see. Most complaints now relate to VAR and in particular VAR interpretation which can be eradicated with better training and direction.

The problem is, that due to fewer people wanting to take up refereeing at the lower levels owing to the verbal and even violent abuse they get, they only need to be average at best to make progress up the leagues. My guess is that many refs who would previously have been filtered out in the amateur leagues are now making it to the lower professional leagues.

Thankfully referees at Premier League and Championship levels are full time professionals with a decent Annual Salary plus match fees of £1150 EPL and £850 in the Championship. I can’t find any information relating to League One and Two referee fees but can’t believe it’s only £80 a match.

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Re: The Standard of Refereeing Debate post Sunderland

Post by saint jude » Fri Nov 06, 2020 5:25 pm

Some of the kids we've had officiating games just recent should receive pocket money not an actual salary. Took the time also to glean information on the pay structure at lower level for game officials but came up short. Stands to reason the competence outside the top two divisions is not as efficient as higher levels as explained elsewhere but as for singling us out for particular treatment, maybe a touch far fetched. It's a culmination of a number of factors such as inexperience, view obstruction, willingness to perform etc. The VAR issue can be deemed helpful or problematic dependant on how you view it. They've introduced new measures in recent time that aren't for everyone. Supposed to be of greater assistance but they often cause more problems than they can hope to resolve.

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Re: The Standard of Refereeing Debate post Sunderland

Post by tangfastic » Fri Nov 06, 2020 5:31 pm

I remember someone commenting on a ref after the Wycombe game (dodgy decisions that game) last season that he was paid only 80 quid a game.

Bit of digging and found this:
Referees at the semi-professional level - the lower leagues of the English football pyramid - get both their match fee as well as expenses. They are paid around £80 per game as well as whatever mileage they have to travel to and from the match venue.

That’s for semi-pro and I think the ref in question could have been a non-league ref (last-minute replacement) and used to getting those fees. I’d expect L1 fees would be higher. Still probably pretty low, I’d guess.... low hundreds. Championship refs get £600 quid per game apparently .

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