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Academy over 50 club

Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:18 am
by tangfastic
Woolfys now got 50 senior appearances under his belt. EADT have done a story on academy players who’ve reached 50 appearances since it was opened in the late 90’s.

https://www.eadt.co.uk/sport/ipswich-t ... es-6673830

The likes of Bramble, Dyer and Scowcroft aren’t mentioned. Was it because they started here before the academy was opened?

There’s 17 graduates in, say, 20 years who’ve got to 50 appearances. Is that good or bad? Not sure myself.

Looking at the top four - you’ve got Smith, Garvan, Matt Richards and Hyam. Garvan, I suppose, left us for some money and his career went upwards for a short period, before heading downwards. But can’t say they had great careers. Then you have the ones like Bent, Wickham and Ambrose who’ve had PL careers. Most of these listed players’ careers head downwards once released.

I think we’ve got a good a crop of youngsters as we’ve had for a while. Or is that because we’re now in League 1 and they get more chances and the bar is set lower? Woolfy, Dozzell and Bishop are on the list - as well as Kenlock - who are current players.

Does this prove the academy has produced enough young players or do we need to see more become established senior players?

Re: Academy over 50 club

Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:57 am
by Ricco
Not great reading, it is perhaps a good visual for those who think it is all about academy and that that is the best way to build for the future. It just won't happen, under Burley we were able to keep hold of the best youngsters for a year or two because the club were on the verge of the Premier League, now the best youngsters get bought up by the big clubs when they're 16.

It's a potential revenue stream, but the last big windfall was Wickham nearly 10 years ago and as I mentioned, now we're league 1, the likes of him would get snapped up far earlier far cheaper.

Re: Academy over 50 club

Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 11:35 am
by marko69
Garvan falling out of favour with Roy K(unt)eane, but going on to the EPL. More evidence of football genius from Roy.

Luke Hyam, released by Southend. That’s some fall,

Also forget just how good Darren Bent was.

Agreed, not good reading at all; quite depressing actually coupled with a view to moving forward.

Re: Academy over 50 club

Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 1:11 pm
by Bluemike
Is it bad reading? One graduate virtually every year that goes on to make 50+ appearances, the figure would have been higher but for others being snapped up early by other clubs.

I also think we have a really good crop of kids at our disposal at the moment, its how they kick on and progress that is the thing.

Re: Academy over 50 club

Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 3:44 pm
by Ricco
Bluemike wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 1:11 pm
the figure would have been higher but for others being snapped up early by other clubs.
Well I think that's the whole point of it being a 50+ thing, it's looking at academy players that weren't snapped up early and make a significant difference to the first team, and to me at least, that looks like a pretty rare thing.

Darren Bent made a huge difference to the team, but I think he stands alone on that list as an excellent academy product that boosted the first team.

Smith, Garvan, Richards, Hyam, Haynes, Westlake are the only names on the list other than Bent that played a substantial amount of times for the club, and none of them were without their critics, could we really not have bought such players for not a lot, did they only play a substantial amount for the club because they were good players not great?

More recent players have had promising stints here and there, but none have held down a place in the side or have shown themselves healthy enough to potentially hold that place for 3 or 4 seasons despite us now being a league 1 club.

I'm not criticising the academy, I think Town have always had good set up, but the best products do not help the first team and do not (at this level) make as much money as they should when sold. I'm criticising the belief that if we dump a load of money in to the academy, then in a few years we will have a squad of youngsters ready to charge us up the football league. If that is Evans' 3-5 year plan then he's a bloody idiot, the best will get sold off for cheap and we'll be left with a bunch of injury-prone primadonnas who show a fraction of the ambition and love for the club as someone like Luke Chambers who was signed for free, has made 350+ appearances and in that time we've not had to stroke his ego or change a single nappy.

Re: Academy over 50 club

Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:55 pm
by tangfastic
Ricco wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 3:44 pm
Bluemike wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 1:11 pm
the figure would have been higher but for others being snapped up early by other clubs.
Well I think that's the whole point of it being a 50+ thing, it's looking at academy players that weren't snapped up early and make a significant difference to the first team, and to me at least, that looks like a pretty rare thing.

Darren Bent made a huge difference to the team, but I think he stands alone on that list as an excellent academy product that boosted the first team.

Smith, Garvan, Richards, Hyam, Haynes, Westlake are the only names on the list other than Bent that played a substantial amount of times for the club, and none of them were without their critics, could we really not have bought such players for not a lot, did they only play a substantial amount for the club because they were good players not great?

More recent players have had promising stints here and there, but none have held down a place in the side or have shown themselves healthy enough to potentially hold that place for 3 or 4 seasons despite us now being a league 1 club.

I'm not criticising the academy, I think Town have always had good set up, but the best products do not help the first team and do not (at this level) make as much money as they should when sold. I'm criticising the belief that if we dump a load of money in to the academy, then in a few years we will have a squad of youngsters ready to charge us up the football league. If that is Evans' 3-5 year plan then he's a bloody idiot, the best will get sold off for cheap and we'll be left with a bunch of injury-prone primadonnas who show a fraction of the ambition and love for the club as someone like Luke Chambers who was signed for free, has made 350+ appearances and in that time we've not had to stroke his ego or change a single nappy.
Adding to Riccos response to Mike about other clubs snapping up youngsters - here’s the next group of players who didn’t reach 50.

Four more players have made more than 25 appearances for Ipswich but departed before reaching 50.

They are Shane Supple (38), Josh Carson (33), Josh Emmanuel (29) and Liam Trotter (26).


Those lot didn’t really contribute much.

I suppose Mike could be meaning the young 15 or 16 year olds who get snapped up by Man City or Chelsea. I don’t think any of them have made into those first teams yet... and I don’t think any of them have gone out on loan at a decent level yet. Never know how good they’ll end up.

One other thing is there’s former academy players like Nick Pope and Jack Marriott who were released and then went up the leagues via other clubs. Also Conor Houriiane and Matt Clarke went down the leagues and other clubs developed them. Could be there’s a disconnect between the academy and the first team somewhere.

If we stay in League One and with the salary cap then the academy could be really important. I do think that over the last fifteen years the academy has produced less quality. Maybe flattered to deceive. That could change in the next few years.

Re: Academy over 50 club

Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 5:56 pm
by Andym
*Edit: just seen Tang's post and I think this makes the same point.*

I think we need to separate the past from the future.

I'm not sure how many others from the past could have been better utilised and of greater value to the club, but I think we often failed to bring them on sufficiently. I've made the point before how the playoffs have impacted the way we look at football; 75% of clubs are still looking closely at one or other end of the table until near the end of the season. Prior to the playoffs, teams would know they had no chance of promotion or relegation earlier, which gave them a better chance of of blooding the youngsters. Over more recent years, when we made or nearly made the playoffs, or were fighting relegation, it was unlikely a manager would risk it - particularly not the MM-type who preferred his "hairy-arsed blokes". That's not a criticism - just a statement of how it's more difficult to take risks these days.

That is the past. Whether we get promotion this season or not, in the future we are going to be in a league with a salary cap. My understanding is (and I may be wrong) that the youngsters aren't counted as part of this. In which case, having 3 or 4 who could potentially step up occasionally is far more use than, for example, a Skuse or Huws who are often injured and in my opinion no better than what we have. So I don't think we need world beaters who will go for big salaries to higher levels (although that would be nice), but to have some who can step up when needed for 5 or 10 games a season for a couple of years and then hopefully become regulars (or sold) is going to become vital if we are to maintain a decent sized squad.

So I think circumstances have changed with the salary cap to a point where we can't afford the old guard unless they are head and shoulders above the rest. We need a balance of youth and experience, but with the salary cap you can only afford so much experience - and unlike some of our experienced players, they have to prove their worth.

Re: Academy over 50 club

Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 7:28 pm
by number 9
I'd really like to see how our Academy compares to other clubs before I make judgement. I've always believed the Academy should be well funded to develop our own players as much as possible. Unfortunately, I believe over the last 20 years parents and youth coaches may have increasingly steered talent away from ITFC. We're not getting the pick of the crop like we used to. It's really difficult to judge the quality of our more recent graduates because Keane and MM didn't want to blood the youngsters. Was the writing already on the wall as far as talent is concerned, or are they both just c*cks? I have to admit, I'm glad we now have the likes of Dozzell, Lankester, Bishop and Downes et al available for the first team...can you imagine if we didn't have them with the looming salary cap? Are they good enough for the Championship? Well we have to see after we get promoted.

Re: Academy over 50 club

Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:07 pm
by number 9
https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/55314305

I suppose this new rule could affect our Academy youngsters. Does it mean the big clubs will be even more inclined to poach young talent from British football clubs as opposed to bringing young players over from the continent?

Re: Academy over 50 club

Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:30 am
by number 9
http://peopleai.com/fame/identities/andre-dozzell

I’ve still got my head in my hands! How can that c*ck be a millionaire?