20 game stats comparison Cook : McKenna

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hallamblue
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20 game stats comparison Cook : McKenna

Post by hallamblue » Sat Apr 16, 2022 4:10 pm

Cook: P 20. W7 L7 D 6
His last 6 games : W2 L 2 D1

McKenna : P20 . W10 L4 D6
His last 6 games : W 1 L2 D3

Results:
TBh not a huge amount of difference in actually results, and certainly not a statistical significance. McKenna has had the “luxury” of a more settled squad as it has now bedded in.

Football quality: McKenna is streets ahead.

Problems: the same ones exist under McKenna as they did under Cook, namely.

Unable to score goals/ squander numerous chances.
Succumb to the sucker punch most games.
Zero goal threat from set pieces,
Zero ability to take corners.
Last edited by hallamblue on Mon Apr 18, 2022 6:30 am, edited 2 times in total.

MasseyFerguson
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Re: 20 game stats comparison Cook : McKenna

Post by MasseyFerguson » Sun Apr 17, 2022 12:16 am

hallamblue wrote:
Sat Apr 16, 2022 4:10 pm
Cook: P 20. W7 L7 D 6
His last 6 games : W2 L 2 D1

McKenna : P20 . W10 L4 D6
His last 6 games : W 1 L2 D3

Results:
TBh not a huge amount of difference in actually results, and certainly not a statistical significance. McKenna has had the “luxury” of a more settled squad as it has now bedded in.

Football quality: McKenna is streets ahead.

Problems: the same ones exist under McKenna as they did under Cook, namely.

Unable to score goals/ squander numerous chances.
Succumb to the sucker punch most games.
Zero goal threat from set pieces,
Zero ability to take corners.
Very interesting comparison. I'm not defending Cook anymore but I think it's also only fair to point out that he was missing Burns for quite a few games. When Burns played, results under Cook were much better than when he didn't.

I do think KMcK will prove to be a vastly superior manager in time.

BlueBalls
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Re: 20 game stats comparison Cook : McKenna

Post by BlueBalls » Sun Apr 17, 2022 8:43 am

Thats 27pts vs 36pts which Id say is significant.

shabba
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Re: 20 game stats comparison Cook : McKenna

Post by shabba » Sun Apr 17, 2022 9:42 am

hallamblue wrote:
Sat Apr 16, 2022 4:10 pm
Cook: P 20. W7 L7 D 6
His last 6 games : W2 L 2 D1
Somethings wrong there, ‘last 6 games’ and there is 5 results…..

hallamblue
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Re: 20 game stats comparison Cook : McKenna

Post by hallamblue » Sun Apr 17, 2022 9:23 pm

shabba wrote:
Sun Apr 17, 2022 9:42 am
hallamblue wrote:
Sat Apr 16, 2022 4:10 pm
Cook: P 20. W7 L7 D 6
His last 6 games : W2 L 2 D1
Somethings wrong there, ‘last 6 games’ and there is 5 results…..
Oh sorry , I’ve obviously missed a game off … just looked again it should have read
P 6 W 2 L3 D 1

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Re: 20 game stats comparison Cook : McKenna

Post by hallamblue » Sun Apr 17, 2022 9:32 pm

BlueBalls wrote:
Sun Apr 17, 2022 8:43 am
Thats 27pts vs 36pts which Id say is significant.
Isn’t it 39 pts vs 27pts : difference of 12 pts ?
But as the EADT pointed out Burns was missing for a large number of Cooks games ( injured?) … so that might explain the difference. Whether 12pts is statistically significant I don’t know but both managers have drawn 6 games. McKenna has won 10 and Cook 7 …. Maybe the loss of Burns was the difference in those games ? I’m pretty sure if Burns was out for the last 3 games we’d struggle to be as effective ( which we all know is one of our major Achilles heels ). Stop Burns , you stop Ipswich .

I suppose my overall impression from those 20 games comparison is there’s not a lot of difference.

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Re: 20 game stats comparison Cook : McKenna

Post by Bluemike » Sun Apr 17, 2022 10:47 pm

Disagree with that mate, there's a world of difference in many ways

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number 9
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Re: 20 game stats comparison Cook : McKenna

Post by number 9 » Mon Apr 18, 2022 3:09 am

Sorry I’ve tried not to respond to this thread, but the more I read it the more I get pissed off. To suggest there’s not much difference between Cook & McKenna as managers of ITFC is fuckin ludicrous! Yes we still have a lot of work to do, but we’re in good hands and frankly if you can’t see that then you know little about football. I mean in the sense of playing football not watching football and creating an opinion. There’s nothing wrong with our manager or the current structure of our club at the moment and we should all be thankful for that after so many years of incompetence. To suggest we haven’t changed and we’re not in good hands is just plain stupid! Sorry to be so crass, but come on people if you don’t see improvement you’re fuckin blind!

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Re: 20 game stats comparison Cook : McKenna

Post by hallamblue » Mon Apr 18, 2022 6:27 am

Number 9 , you’re perfectly entitled to respond and to voice your opinion . It’s a forum.

However I think you’ve missed the point I’ve tried to make .

I’ve stated in a line , quite clearly, as regards to “the quality of football , McKenna is streets ahead “.

But as regards to actual RESULTS there is not that much difference over a 20 game run per manager .

I suppose it comes down to that old argument doesn’t it quality of football vs result !

Yesterdays game was an absolute classic example of just that .

What will get us out of League One , nice passing football or results ? We don’t appear to be able to produce both when it really matters and we time and again fail to deal with physical sides. This division is full of them . Cooks approach didn’t work . He was criticised for being fixed in his tactics and Formation. I ask you all is McKenna any different in his approach / tactics ?
Last edited by hallamblue on Mon Apr 18, 2022 6:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 20 game stats comparison Cook : McKenna

Post by hallamblue » Mon Apr 18, 2022 6:29 am

Bluemike wrote:
Sun Apr 17, 2022 10:47 pm
Disagree with that mate, there's a world of difference in many ways
See my above reply to number 9 Mike . You’ve both missed my point .

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Re: 20 game stats comparison Cook : McKenna

Post by Bluemike » Mon Apr 18, 2022 8:13 am

You say the difference is 12 points? So yes had Cook picked up the same amount of points we'd be in the play offs, massive difference in managers. Add to that it was Cooks own squad that he failed with and that McKenna is picking up the pieces with, Cook has been a manager for bloody years, McKenna 5 minutes, one knows how to coach, the other has no clue and is a one trick pony. The style of football are worlds apart which is reflected in attendances. Some of us had been saying for ages our squad was suited to 3-5-2, McKenna saw it in days where as the other tosser wouldn't. I still say they are worlds apart which is why Manchester United thought so highly of him and didn't want to lose him and why Cook is now at non league Chesterfield and doing his best to f*ck them up too. Absolutely no comparison.

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Re: 20 game stats comparison Cook : McKenna

Post by hallamblue » Mon Apr 18, 2022 8:21 am

I have said the football quality under McKenna is steers ahead . I don’t know how to say that any clearer.


The results however are not that different.

One had a brand new squad

The other, a settled squad

The difference in RESULTS is 3 wins.

BOTH managers stick to a “same formation”, whoever we play.


That’s ALL I’ve said 🤷‍♀️

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Re: 20 game stats comparison Cook : McKenna

Post by Ricco » Mon Apr 18, 2022 8:39 am

27pts vs 36pts might not seem too significant at first glance, but if you extrapolate that to a full season, you'd find Cook would acheive 62pts (good enough for 15th last season!!!) and McKenna would acheive 83pts (good enough for 3rd last season).

Hypothetical, but change one of those draws and it would have been good enough for automatic promotion.

It is all a bit dodgy, because how can you tell how good the 20 teams were that each manager faced and how can you work out the difference Burns or other injuries and suspensions would make. Having said that, I think it's clear to all that the team are playing far better football, have deserved even more points than they have picked up and perhaps have only been the second best team once?

There's often that honeymoon boost of a new manager, but with some successful recruitment and further improvement, it's worth being quietly optomistic I think?

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Re: 20 game stats comparison Cook : McKenna

Post by Bluemike » Mon Apr 18, 2022 8:46 am

But you can't see that one stuck to a formation that didn't work and one sticks to a formation that does work ? We recently went 12 unbeaten under KM, Cook wasn't ever capable of that, McKenna had to work with the strikers he inherited, put together by Cook, our defence gets clean sheet after clean sheet now, before that the defence was a joke. I'm pretty gobsmacked we even continue to compare the Two.

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Re: 20 game stats comparison Cook : McKenna

Post by hallamblue » Mon Apr 18, 2022 10:50 am

Is McKenna’s formation working though Mike? Yes we keep possession. But we don’t have an end product do we. So he keeps rotating the strikers in some blind hope they’ll start scoring. He doesn’t change his approach, just like Cook didn’t, and teams have sussed , keep Burns quiet and you nullify most if not all of our attack. So what’s the difference?


The squad has evolved and dare I suggest , gelled, as the season has gone on. We’ll never know what might have happened had Cook remained . And I’m not say8mg I want him here . I’m happy with the new brand of football under McKenna. Very happy. But to come back to my original post . All I did was take Cooks first 20 league games with a brand new squad and compare it to McKenna’s first 20 games in control …. The difference is 3 wins. Yes you can extrapolate that over whole season and get what you get. Would McKenna have got a different tune out of a brand new squad , with no backroom staff in place at the start of the season? I’m not sure he would have. It’s about the newness of everything. There was no infrastructure or experienced backroom staff to help Cook. Dyer himself said in his interview that Cook worked like a Trojan trying to do all the jobs and support an inexperienced staff that we’re supposed t9 be helping him. I’m not making any excuses. Cook was poor, but he got similar results. Mckennas has taken over the same squad but under very different set of circumstances now. He has an experienced ( very experienced backroom staff to aid him), he has a squad that is now settled…. He’s a better coach yes, but the results are not that different given all those factors.

It was a simple comparison of 20 games between two different coaching styles. Nothings perfect. We are IMHO still in transition and still rebuilding. Am I happy with McKenna? Very much. Do I want Cook back, no.

Sorry to have wasted everyone’s time posting my thoughts…….

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Re: 20 game stats comparison Cook : McKenna

Post by Bluemike » Mon Apr 18, 2022 11:39 am

Of course you haven't wasted anyone's time at all, its your views and very well put across, the fact I don't agree is not an issue, its purely my view, many will probably agree with you, I just think its night and day between the Two irrespective of the infrastructure etc, this guy will be the real deal, it was only a couple of weeks ago many on hear were worried about if we can keep him or not lol. I can feel/see the massive change in our club under Gamechanger/ Ashton/ McKenna and co, this is gonna be a fab ride and next season is going to be our season, of course it won't be easy blah blah blah but I've never been more confident.

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Re: 20 game stats comparison Cook : McKenna

Post by Ricco » Mon Apr 18, 2022 1:47 pm

Just going on a slight stat binge, for those 20 games, this is the goals per game for and against:

1.80 For 1.50 Against - +6GD 36F 30A - Cook
1.10 For 0.45 Against - +13GD 22F 9A - McK

Now that's a pretty stark difference!

I also looked at McK as U18 manager at united. This must be very hard to gauge, as surely so much depends simply on the talent and recruitment that year. I was more intrigued to see if it pointed to him being a particularly aggressive or defensive manager, but it seems his teams are generally fairly balanced, none of his teams conceded anywhere nearly as few as town have under him, but again, that it probably partly a symptom of being an U18 league.

McK took over 29th Aug 2016

Year - pos - GP - Pts - GF - GA - GD
16/17 - 2nd - 22 - 46 - 63 - 31 - 32
17/18 - 1st - 22 - 48 - 65 - 33 - 32
18/19 - 4th - 22 - 43 - 60 - 39 - 21
19/20 - 6th - 16 - 23 - 34 - 32 - 2 (COVID affected)
20/21 - 2nd - 24 - 60 - 79 - 27 - 52

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Re: 20 game stats comparison Cook : McKenna

Post by Andym » Mon Apr 18, 2022 3:02 pm

Unfortunately I think the 20-game stat needs to be read with caution. First, there’s the new manager bounce syndrome, and second the change in playing style made us harder to predict for the first few games. The last 6 paints a different picture, which I think was the point of turn original post.
I still ask myself - would I prefer to watch Ipswich, mid table, or Rotherham in second place. For entertainment and quality football, I’d watch Ipswich every time. I think that too was part of the original post.

The big question is : can we put right the shortcomings?
I think the key is getting a balance, that is a left side that works as well as the right.
We complain about the strikers, but I’ll make this point. Will Keane struggled last season with us; he leaves and starts scoring. When we sign strikers who have been scoring for fun, they stop scoring. There is much more to it than blaming the strikers. Yes, we missed a sitter on Saturday. I still reckon Darren Bent missed a couple for every one he scored. We need to create more chances. Remember we have changed from being a high-scoring, high-conceding team with a back 4 to a low-scoring, low-conceding team with 3 central defenders, I.e. a back 5 when defending.
The jury is out on whether McKenna (or whoever is responsible for recruitment) can find the right players for the current system. But I believe the major weakness is the left hand side; get that balance and it current strikers would do better. And the original post was spot on.

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number 9
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Re: 20 game stats comparison Cook : McKenna

Post by number 9 » Mon Apr 18, 2022 3:52 pm

hallamblue wrote:
Mon Apr 18, 2022 6:27 am
Number 9 , you’re perfectly entitled to respond and to voice your opinion . It’s a forum.

However I think you’ve missed the point I’ve tried to make .

I’ve stated in a line , quite clearly, as regards to “the quality of football , McKenna is streets ahead “.

But as regards to actual RESULTS there is not that much difference over a 20 game run per manager .

I suppose it comes down to that old argument doesn’t it quality of football vs result !

Yesterdays game was an absolute classic example of just that .

What will get us out of League One , nice passing football or results ? We don’t appear to be able to produce both when it really matters and we time and again fail to deal with physical sides. This division is full of them . Cooks approach didn’t work . He was criticised for being fixed in his tactics and Formation. I ask you all is McKenna any different in his approach / tactics ?
Yeah sorry Hallam, now that I've read your original post again I can better understand the point you are trying to make. I just got thrown off by the 'not much difference' comment, but as you stated that was meant for 'results'.

I agree with Andy's comments somewhat, but while our lack of goals are not totally to blame on the strikers...how many sitters have they missed?? I think quite a few clear-cut chances have been missed by all of our current strikers. Also as I stated on another thread, we need more goal production from the midfield. Most of the top teams have midfielders who score frequently.

Fixing the left side is certainly an area that needs improving, and as Andy says I think it will make us more balanced and upredictable.

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Re: 20 game stats comparison Cook : McKenna

Post by saint jude » Mon Apr 18, 2022 5:44 pm

McKenna made us tough to beat, competitive. About until the last few fixtures (you) always felt we would take a result from any game even if it were only one point. So far removed from the Paul Cook horseshit, (whereas) the tactics, the mindset, the whole philosophy when taking to the field, left us at a disadvantage before any play was ongoing.

Simple math here, McKenna has been arguably the best team coach here since the mid 2000's. Only a short time with us but has instilled a belief that we can once again achieve something, which was clearly lacking with a host of sorry-as* names before it.

The only thing left to wonder is how long can the club feasibly hold on to him. Not sure when his contract expires or how long for but has really made a name for himself here for the most part and in such little time, it feels kind of inevitable he'll be tempted away elsewhere by a more lucrative offer or substantial club name. Not now, not in the immediat6e future, but feel it'll come to pass before too long. This his first proper coaching role, guess it's a stepping stone of sorts onto larger land. Maybe not had the effect the past few games as once before but at the end of it all, has been real fresh air to the team name (other) than a number of the "individuals" before it.

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