If I Was Manager

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rossi
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If I Was Manager

Post by rossi » Fri Jun 17, 2022 8:30 am

The dismal performances by England over the last 4 games got me thinking about the game in general, and how we approach it in England.
I know there are plenty of stats taken during a game - looking at England's last 4 games there is one stat I would love to see - namely the net position of the ball at the end of the game. For that, take the position of the ball at the start of the game - every yard the ball is moved forward is positive and every yard the ball is moved back is negative. I'm betting that at the end of each of the last 4 England games that figure would be negative - I could not believe how much backwards movement of the ball there was.
This is not really a modern problem, it started, IMO, in the days of Wilkins and Robson and the emergence in fashion of playing 2 defensive midfielders. Not only is there much backwards movement of the ball, but the pace of the game is so slow too.
Maybe I'm far too simplistic, but my idea of how the game should be played is as follows:
Defenders - stop the opposing team from scoring, and when in possesion move the ball forward to the midfielders
Midfield - receive the ball from defence and move it forwards to the front men
Front Men - receive the ball from midfield and set up a goal attempt

Thus, in my simple world, the only time the ball should ever be moved backwards is as an integral part of an attack, ie by laying the ball back for a colleague to shoot.
So, my message to my defenders and midfielders would be simple - move the ball backwards and you don't play the next game.

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Re: If I Was Manager

Post by hallamblue » Fri Jun 17, 2022 1:54 pm

I get the distinct feeling the England players simply aren’t interested in this dead rubber “ competition” in what is effectively close season. i think it’s barmy they are even playing these games tbh. What’s the point of this competition?

Just my view of course ! :D

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Re: If I Was Manager

Post by marko69 » Fri Jun 17, 2022 1:56 pm

Quote:
Defenders - stop the opposing team from scoring, and when in possesion move the ball forward to the midfielders
Midfield - receive the ball from defence and move it forwards to the front men
Front Men - receive the ball from midfield and set up a goal attempt
End quote

This is all very good. I take it this all applies in games when the opposition are all standing about with their finger up their arse?

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rossi
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Re: If I Was Manager

Post by rossi » Fri Jun 17, 2022 2:20 pm

marko69 wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 1:56 pm
Quote:
Defenders - stop the opposing team from scoring, and when in possesion move the ball forward to the midfielders
Midfield - receive the ball from defence and move it forwards to the front men
Front Men - receive the ball from midfield and set up a goal attempt
End quote

This is all very good. I take it this all applies in games when the opposition are all standing about with their finger up their arse?
Of course it doesn't - what it means is that if a player (in whatever position) wins possession of the ball he should look to move the ball forwards. I don't see what that has to do with players standing around with their fingers up their arseholes - which is not the case in England but I appreciate it may happen in other countries

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rossi
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Re: If I Was Manager

Post by rossi » Fri Jun 17, 2022 2:23 pm

hallamblue wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 1:54 pm
I get the distinct feeling the England players simply aren’t interested in this dead rubber “ competition” in what is effectively close season. i think it’s barmy they are even playing these games tbh. What’s the point of this competition?

Just my view of course ! :D
and yet you, I, and plenty of others on this board have condemned ITFC for not taking some games in some of the cup competitions seriously. There's no difference.

ALL games are important, and ALL games should be played to win - momentum is everything.

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marko69
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Re: If I Was Manager

Post by marko69 » Fri Jun 17, 2022 2:25 pm

The opposition?

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saint jude
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Re: If I Was Manager

Post by saint jude » Fri Jun 17, 2022 2:31 pm

viewing the thread title, perhaps you could bring in Midge Ure to coach the team or something.

as another poster put it maybe they and a number of nationals just don't want to be there or got little interest in participating. There's a few absolute whipping boys of Europe in it if correct (sure Gibraltar were seen) and all this before a major tournament later in the year, even if the venue and timing do amount to a colossal screw-up. Guess some sides just don't feel it or got no real inclination to achieve.

one relevance being apparently a number of (didn't specify how many) were calling for Southgate's head on a plate and insistence to be fired after a handful of say "inappropriate scores" and all this just months after proving to be one of their best national team coaches ever, on the verge of greatness etc.

f**king idiots is best to describe it, OK they're sore at a couple of losses but guess some people have short recollection / change of opinion real quick.

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Re: If I Was Manager

Post by BlueBalls » Fri Jun 17, 2022 2:34 pm

You cant move the ball forward all the time. In fact playing it backwards is often advantageous and results in net forward movement..... think triangle and diamond shape passing movements.

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Re: If I Was Manager

Post by marko69 » Fri Jun 17, 2022 2:35 pm

^^ yes ^^

That was my point missed by Rossi.

What are the opposition doing ?

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Re: If I Was Manager

Post by valleyroad » Fri Jun 17, 2022 2:47 pm

hallamblue wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 1:54 pm
I get the distinct feeling the England players simply aren’t interested in this dead rubber “ competition” in what is effectively close season. i think it’s barmy they are even playing these games tbh. What’s the point of this competition?

Just my view of course ! :D
100% agree its getting close to the abuse of professional footballers.
Virtually no close season then a World Cup in ridiculous location of Qatar. Total corruption.
Also the abuse handed out to Southgate is scandalous.

For countries like Scotland the competition has value in that its a back door to qualification. For England I would say its more to give a higher quality of opposition in competitive matches as opposed to friendlies.

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Re: If I Was Manager

Post by Bluemike » Fri Jun 17, 2022 2:54 pm

Personally I find this competition the biggest load of bollocks ever, much like most International football to be fair.

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Re: If I Was Manager

Post by valleyroad » Fri Jun 17, 2022 4:19 pm

marko69 wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 2:35 pm
^^ yes ^^

That was my point missed by Rossi.

What are the opposition doing ?
Retaining possession and putting 6 passed us :)

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marko69
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Re: If I Was Manager

Post by marko69 » Fri Jun 17, 2022 5:36 pm

valleyroad wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 4:19 pm
marko69 wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 2:35 pm
^^ yes ^^

That was my point missed by Rossi.

What are the opposition doing ?
Retaining possession and putting 6 passed us :)
:lol: ….. yep thats our script for our opposition for sure! Haha 👏👏👏

Would like to understand the pass back / pass forward formula better though. Whats happened to that pattern when its 80/20 possession….. (like a Watford v Ipswich game few years ago) …. Thoroughly pumped by Watford but ipswich won 1-0? Got to assume thats just midfield to striker issue? Or the Priskin / Sears / Bonne effect?

Edit to add: Not rubbishing anyones views or taking cheap shots at any domestic or international teams, but can’t quite put the ball forward / ball backward into any fixed scenario where one is better?
Brazil have won 5 World Cups mainly passing the ball back towards their own box.

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Ricco
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Re: If I Was Manager

Post by Ricco » Fri Jun 17, 2022 5:56 pm

I think if you said 'just pass forward' to a professional footballer, their response would be 'you try it!'.

Sounds simple, but if you have 3 athletes closing you down and no easy pass on, then what you going to do? We moan about player playing backwards passes, but we moan even more if they lose possession.

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Re: If I Was Manager

Post by rossi » Fri Jun 17, 2022 5:59 pm

I have not missed anybody's points, and I totally get that my attacking view of the game will be disagreed with much more than agreed with.

But my view is that you don't get anywhere by moving the ball backwards (or sideways come to think of it) - and possession counts for absolutely nothing if you don't score goals at the end of it.

My main criticism of the modern game is simply that the attitude of most managers seems to be over cautious, and tactics seem to set not letting your opponent score at a higher priority than scoring yourself. That is certainly true of England (and not just for the last 4 games either, but for as long as GS has been manager), and I see a lot of this attitude lately in the way Ipswich plays too.

It's not only the fact of back passing when there are options for moving the ball forwards, why do players (especially defenders and defensive midfielders) always have to reduce the game to a standing or walking pace whenever they get the ball? England do it, and Ipswich do it, and in my opinion it's totally boring.

Of course, it's just an opinion.

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Re: If I Was Manager

Post by Ricco » Fri Jun 17, 2022 9:27 pm

I haven't been able to watch a lot of England recently (fortunately), but I think a lot of their style is fitness preservation and injury prevention. Particularly during hot, intense tournaments, it can be a battle of attrition, same goes for these extremely fixture packed seasons.

Even in individual games too, it generally takes more energy to defend than attack, so by keeping boring possession, you are gaining a slight advantage in that match and potentially future matches too.

I don't like it and I'm not even saying it's tactically right as teams can get stuck in that style and lose momentum, but there are many reasons for choices like that and they're not always apparent to us laymen. They also have unbelievable amounts of data that will indicate the best ways to go about things and how players recover and perform 3 days later etc etc.

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Re: If I Was Manager

Post by goldandblack » Sat Jun 18, 2022 12:12 am

rossi wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 5:59 pm
I have not missed anybody's points, and I totally get that my attacking view of the game will be disagreed with much more than agreed with.

But my view is that you don't get anywhere by moving the ball backwards (or sideways come to think of it) - and possession counts for absolutely nothing if you don't score goals at the end of it.

My main criticism of the modern game is simply that the attitude of most managers seems to be over cautious, and tactics seem to set not letting your opponent score at a higher priority than scoring yourself. That is certainly true of England (and not just for the last 4 games either, but for as long as GS has been manager), and I see a lot of this attitude lately in the way Ipswich plays too.

It's not only the fact of back passing when there are options for moving the ball forwards, why do players (especially defenders and defensive midfielders) always have to reduce the game to a standing or walking pace whenever they get the ball? England do it, and Ipswich do it, and in my opinion it's totally boring.

Of course, it's just an opinion.
I think Bieasa at Leeds United had your look on football which i think was a great way and highly recommended to fans, but unfortunately
in todays game other managers can stop them playing, which nearly got them relegated,

Ricco is correct in its all about stats now, but not a great viewing for the fans, we pay for 90 + mins of entertainment, on average we get 60 mins if lucky of the ball being in play, cant see it changing anytime soon, and no more can we call it good entertainment for our money.
as you say, its was a simple game, made hard,

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Re: If I Was Manager

Post by hallamblue » Sat Jun 18, 2022 9:52 am

Bluemike wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 2:54 pm
Personally I find this competition the biggest load of bollocks ever, much like most International football to be fair.
I hate it when you sit in the fence Mike! :lol:

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Re: If I Was Manager

Post by AzzurroMark » Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:40 am

hallamblue wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 9:52 am
Bluemike wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 2:54 pm
Personally I find this competition the biggest load of bollocks ever, much like most International football to be fair.
I hate it when you sit in the fence Mike! :lol:
Likewise, have no interest in this competition, totally unnecessary when we already have major tournaments every two years. I share a similar level of disdain for the Papa John Trophy. So it's a route to silverware for lower league teams, but the fact they have so many stipulations forcing teams to field a certain amount of regulars, shows the contempt bigger teams would show to the tournament if allowed to get away with it!

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Re: If I Was Manager

Post by hallamblue » Sat Jun 18, 2022 2:08 pm

I wouldn’t be surprised if the England squad would rather be elsewhere than in this tournament

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Re: If I Was Manager

Post by MasseyFerguson » Sat Jun 18, 2022 4:10 pm

Fitness levels in the modern game are on a different level than they used to be. Any team playing direct, backs give the ball forward to midfielders, who give the ball forward to forwards all the time will get murdered. There would be no space to do anything creative.

The point of all the sideways, forward, backwards, sideways, forward, backwards, sideways ad nauseam passing is to pull opposition players out of position and create space to exploit.

The problem for most teams who do it is that they do not do it well and, even when space is created, they do not have the skill to exploit it.

That is why so many teams, and so many games, are tedious to watch.

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Re: If I Was Manager

Post by mendipblue » Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:06 pm

rossi wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 8:30 am
The dismal performances by England over the last 4 games got me thinking about the game in general, and how we approach it in England.
I know there are plenty of stats taken during a game - looking at England's last 4 games there is one stat I would love to see - namely the net position of the ball at the end of the game. For that, take the position of the ball at the start of the game - every yard the ball is moved forward is positive and every yard the ball is moved back is negative. I'm betting that at the end of each of the last 4 England games that figure would be negative - I could not believe how much backwards movement of the ball there was.
This is not really a modern problem, it started, IMO, in the days of Wilkins and Robson and the emergence in fashion of playing 2 defensive midfielders. Not only is there much backwards movement of the ball, but the pace of the game is so slow too.
Maybe I'm far too simplistic, but my idea of how the game should be played is as follows:
Defenders - stop the opposing team from scoring, and when in possesion move the ball forward to the midfielders
Midfield - receive the ball from defence and move it forwards to the front men
Front Men - receive the ball from midfield and set up a goal attempt

Thus, in my simple world, the only time the ball should ever be moved backwards is as an integral part of an attack, ie by laying the ball back for a colleague to shoot.
So, my message to my defenders and midfielders would be simple - move the ball backwards and you don't play the next game.
With this philosophy you would of been out of work very quickly. If this was even plausible don't you think the so called managerial greats would of a adopted it. Sorry, not playing backwards at any stage of the game "except for shooting opportunities " is ridiculous.

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Re: If I Was Manager

Post by Blue Wilf » Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:26 pm

I tend to agree Mendip. Sometimes backwards or sideways (much as I hate it in the 'Cole Skuse' mode) is often necessary to take the steam out of an opposition attack or a chance to re-group, regain control and start another offensive move of our own. The concept of only ever passing forwards is, in theory a positive one but it will never be more than that - a theory as it is just not practical in practice.

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Re: If I Was Manager

Post by rossi » Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:07 am

Blue Wilf wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:26 pm
I tend to agree Mendip. Sometimes backwards or sideways (much as I hate it in the 'Cole Skuse' mode) is often necessary to take the steam out of an opposition attack or a chance to re-group, regain control and start another offensive move of our own. The concept of only ever passing forwards is, in theory a positive one but it will never be more than that - a theory as it is just not practical in practice.
Maybe not now, but that wasn't always the case. When I started to watch football there was very little back passing, largely I think because the 2-3-5 formation that was prevalent until the early 70's lent itself to playing the game on the offensive. And I don't recall seeing much backwards passing from Ipswich as recently as in Joe Royle's tenure.

So it's not at all correct to say that the game cannot be played using mainly forward passing - it's just that the trend over the past 50 years has put money as the all important thing in the game and consequently managers are of the opinion that 'first priority is to make sure you don't lose'.

And I cannot for the life of me understand people who think that the style of football that moves the ball around in triangles is good - if you move the ball in a triangle, then after then third pass the ball ends up exactly where it started, which is fine if you want to watch boring non-offensive football but not otherwise

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Re: If I Was Manager

Post by Bluemike » Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:19 am

I think Keegan tried your theory at Newcastle and it was fab to watch, all they knew was attack and challenged for the title.

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Re: If I Was Manager

Post by Blue Wilf » Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:25 pm

But they had Tino Asprilla, not Tino Piggott...

Seriously though, I am all for positive, forward passing football. I just think that there is a place for defensive, controlled sideways/backwards flow on occasions (not all the time aka Skuse), but if played well and to regain control, I think it adds to a sides ability to demonstrate superiority and strength.

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Re: If I Was Manager

Post by Bluemike » Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:55 pm

I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure what Rossi means is that if there is an option of a forward/sideways/backwards pass you take the forward pass virtually every time, providing of course it is an option.

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rossi
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Re: If I Was Manager

Post by rossi » Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:23 pm

Bluemike wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:55 pm
I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure what Rossi means is that if there is an option of a forward/sideways/backwards pass you take the forward pass virtually every time, providing of course it is an option.
Got it in one, Mike - of course there will be times when there is absolutely no forward pass on, maybe I should have thought that some people would take what I posted so literally before I posted it. But if there is a forward pass on, then that should definitely be the option taken, every time.

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Re: If I Was Manager

Post by valleyroad » Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:39 pm

rossi wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:07 am
Blue Wilf wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:26 pm
I tend to agree Mendip. Sometimes backwards or sideways (much as I hate it in the 'Cole Skuse' mode) is often necessary to take the steam out of an opposition attack or a chance to re-group, regain control and start another offensive move of our own. The concept of only ever passing forwards is, in theory a positive one but it will never be more than that - a theory as it is just not practical in practice.
Maybe not now, but that wasn't always the case. When I started to watch football there was very little back passing, largely I think because the 2-3-5 formation that was prevalent until the early 70's lent itself to playing the game on the offensive. And I don't recall seeing much backwards passing from Ipswich as recently as in Joe Royle's tenure.

So it's not at all correct to say that the game cannot be played using mainly forward passing - it's just that the trend over the past 50 years has put money as the all important thing in the game and consequently managers are of the opinion that 'first priority is to make sure you don't lose'.

And I cannot for the life of me understand people who think that the style of football that moves the ball around in triangles is good - if you move the ball in a triangle, then after then third pass the ball ends up exactly where it started, which is fine if you want to watch boring non-offensive football but not otherwise
Is this not how the great Barca team under Guardiola and others played their football ?

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Re: If I Was Manager

Post by Blue Wilf » Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:59 pm

To be fair, that does make more sense. I took it literally as the words written were fairly uncompromising!

Ie (from Rossi) 'Thus, in my simple world, the only time the ball should ever be moved backwards is as an integral part of an attack, ie by laying the ball back for a colleague to shoot.
So, my message to my defenders and midfielders would be simple - move the ball backwards and you don't play the next game.'

😬

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