Black Lives Matter...

A place to chat about anything thats not football related. Most of the threads in here are completely pointless which is why people keep coming back and back. As the forum title suggests, feel free to make any post you want on any subject you wish. It also has Adult jokes (so be warned) which is the other reason people keep coming back.

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Charnwood
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Black Lives Matter...

Post by Charnwood » Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:48 pm

I’m no racist but I’m sick to death of Black Lives Matter, All Lives Matter and that should be the real message. Of course I understand there’s a problem in the USA and the loss of George Floyd’s life was tragic and unnecessary, but at least his police officer killers have been charged and will be brought to justice, what more do the demonstrators want. More to the point why do we need demonstrations in the UK where we have reasonable racial harmony and of the deaths in police custody 84% are white (no validated).

Am I missing something or is my suspicion that these are the same demonstrators that appear whether the demo be climate change, LGBT rights, immigration, poverty, single fathers rights, Brexit or anything else they can think of rather than get a job.

If I’m being cynical I’m happy to be put straight but from where I sit most of these demonstrators particularly in London appear to be nothing more than trouble makers.

Touch paper lit, ready to sit back and take a bashing.

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Re: Black Lives Matter...

Post by goldandblack » Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:05 pm

Charnwood wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:48 pm
I’m no racist but I’m sick to death of Black Lives Matter, All Lives Matter and that should be the real message. Of course I understand there’s a problem in the USA and the loss of George Floyd’s life was tragic and unnecessary, but at least his police officer killers have been charged and will be brought to justice, what more do the demonstrators want. More to the point why do we need demonstrations in the UK where we have reasonable racial harmony and deaths in police custody 84% are white.

Am I missing something or is my suspicion that these are the same demonstrators that appear whether the demo be climate change, LGBT rights, immigration, poverty, single fathers rights, Brexit or anything else they can think of rather than get a job.

If I’m being cynical I’m happy to be put straight but from where I sit most of these demonstrators particularly in London appear to be nothing more than trouble makers.

Touch paper lit, ready to sit back and take a bashing.
Well Andy I think you said what probably 99% of decent folk think , and I'm colour blind, so when it kicks off I'm right behind you. :wink:

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Re: Black Lives Matter...

Post by number 9 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:25 am

It’s really hard to talk about this as a white man without being labeled a racist. I could never understand what it’s like to be a person of colour. Divisions in society are primarily created by wealth and class...not necessarily ethnicity. However, discrimination does exist in all social environments. It won’t change by pulling down statues and erasing history. It will only begin to change when there is understanding and acceptance of all cultures. IMHO.

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Re: Black Lives Matter...

Post by marko69 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:21 am

Really well said, 9. I tried to write something much earlier but just kept editing and deleting as its just too delicate with written words. Its hard enough trying to discuss things in person without things being taken the wrong way.
But as you say, white people will never understand what its like to be of colour the same way as a straight man doesn't experience the discrimination a gay man has to suffer. It is indeed all about understanding & acceptance and acting accordingly so we can all live peaceful lives.

As for "the leavers"? Fkn tw@ts.

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Re: Black Lives Matter...

Post by Andym » Fri Jun 12, 2020 10:07 am

I too hesitated to comment in haste...that's unusual for me.

While I agree with the original post that in any demonstration there will be an element who join in regardless of the cause, as will the rioters/looters/unruly mob. But that shouldn't cloud our judgement of the cause itself or the need for the cause.

England's history is dominated by oppression. The days of the empire were built on it. And like America, it hasn't improved much. And like the USA, we have a terrible level of inequality between rich and poor. America has hidden theirs under the great American dream, that you can make it if you work hard enough - which is just a way of saying if you're poor it's your own fault.

Of course in both countries there are poor white people as well as poor black people. But there are precious few rich black people in either country.

but the biggest problem is the discrimination. Black people are far more likely to by subjected to random stop and search by the police. They are less likely to get a job - less likely to get an interview if they have a "foreign" name. They are subjected to all sorts of racial abuse as well as prejudice.

So to me Black Lives Matter is a worthy cause. I hate people saying All Lives Matter because it ignores the problem that black lives are treated as less important. As a child of the 60s, much as I hate the need for it I just love to see young people standing up and protesting for what they see as right, whether it's climate change, black lives or starching your underwear. We need young people to be involved politically and that starts by them looking at any issue or injustice that motivates them to get off their phones and do something.

Sorry to rant, and as has been said we really don't know what it's like. I am proud of my 2 sons, one is gay and the other is in a long term relationship with a black girl. I have seen a bit of the prejudice they have faced. But I don't really know what it's like to be looked at or have comments made. And that is mild compared to what many have to put up with.

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Re: Black Lives Matter...

Post by marko69 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:05 pm

Andym wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 10:07 am
I am proud of my 2 sons, one is gay and the other is in a long term relationship with a black girl.
Bloody hell, you’re well suited to this debate. How can you possibly be seen as ranting after disclosing this information. You should be an expert on hearing and dealing with the problem of discrimination.

My eldest son is also gay. Came out the closet when he was 16 although I just knew something was going on with his hormones when I took him to a bewitched concert when he was 11. :lol:

He went to Imperial College in London at 17 and never returned really except for holidays and birthdays. Being gay in London is so much easier than being gay in blinkered and bigoted Scotland. He’s 33 now, a very success chemical engineer living in his own £2.5M town house in Balham. Very proud of him. And his partner is one of the nicest guys on the planet. Has to be to put up with my son. Moody b*stard! :lol:

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Re: Black Lives Matter...

Post by tangfastic » Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:10 pm

I don’t have a gay son :( .

Bloody show-off’s!!!

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Re: Black Lives Matter...

Post by Charnwood » Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:31 pm

tangfastic wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:10 pm
I don’t have a gay son :( .

Bloody show-off’s!!!

You can’t have everything In life Tang, you just have to make the most of what you have, and that applies to all of us.

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Re: Black Lives Matter...

Post by number 9 » Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:00 am

???

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Re: Black Lives Matter...

Post by Bluemike » Tue Jun 16, 2020 7:56 am

Just seen this, I agree with every word of Andy's opening post, its doing my bloody head in, strangely enough racism works both ways although rarely does it seem that way.

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Re: Black Lives Matter...

Post by nicscreamer » Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:56 am

Im sorry Mike, but I don't think it as simple as saying "racism works both ways". As a white male, you and me have never had to experience the prejudice black males have to live with. We are far far far less likely to be stop and searched, we are less likely to be profiled walking in to a shop and followed by an over zealous security guard, we are far less likely to suffer abuse in public, be overlooked for a powerful job position, be harassed by the police..... In a predominantly white country we are very very privelaged and we need to support BLM. Once Black Lives Matter, then we can truly say "All Lives Matter". Until then, its a case of only "Some Lives Matter".

Just my humble...…

And for the record... neither of my boys have come out as gay yet, but one of them is dating a black girl.

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Re: Black Lives Matter...

Post by Bluemike » Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:21 am

Less likely maybe but still it happens, Anthony Joshua telling Black people to only buy from Black owned shops ffs, racist!! What would happen if there was only an awards thing for White artists? And yet the MOBO awards or whatever they are called are ok ? Racism exists in numerous guises. Who was it who was told you can't wear a poppy for fear of upsetting foreigners ? If thats not racist I don't know what is.

As for police harassment, no of course it shouldn't happen any more if you are Black or White, and for the record I have Black and Asian friends and one of my besties is Gay just to make that clear.

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Re: Black Lives Matter...

Post by nicscreamer » Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:39 am

Overwelmingly less likely to happen I would say. And yes, individual situations can result in racism against any group, but taken as a whole and taken as a period of the last 400 years, Black people have had racism against them continually and massively. They have been oppressed and continue to be so in large part. As I stated, until Black lives matter as much and equal to any other life, then All lives don't matter.

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Re: Black Lives Matter...

Post by Bluemike » Tue Jun 16, 2020 12:22 pm

I can't argue with the last 400 years, it's been that way, and as for the arsehole that kneeled on the guys throat for nearly 9 minutes, personally I'd hang him.

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Re: Black Lives Matter...

Post by marko69 » Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:54 pm

Regarding capital punishment for the police officer....... I really must agree. Not a huge fan of capital punishment...... I feel it should only apply to people who cause harm to genuine innocent victims, ie, children, so all paedophiles need wiped off the face of the planet..... but long sentences to everyone else. But that police officer? That’s a seriously warped individual if the footage is genuine. He needs the highest level of punishment the State can give.

But we can’t even eradicate small racism. No chance with the big stuff.
Even though (hand on heart), Och aye the noo, skirt wearin, Caber tossin, haggis munchin, ginger pubed, freckle faced, deep fried mars bar eatin, fat as f*ck, monster watchin c*nt doesn’t bother me AT ALL, it’s still seen as an issue to some.
And don’t get me started on saying chicken fried rice in a chinese voice??
Absolutely no chance sorting out the stuff that matters. Not in my lifetime anyway and I’m 50.

Equality & harmony is so far away.

Actually, the harmony is quite close..... it’s only round the corner. Try the salt n chilli ribs. Awesome.

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Re: Black Lives Matter...

Post by Andym » Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:49 pm

nicscreamer wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:39 am
Overwelmingly less likely to happen I would say. And yes, individual situations can result in racism against any group, but taken as a whole and taken as a period of the last 400 years, Black people have had racism against them continually and massively. They have been oppressed and continue to be so in large part. As I stated, until Black lives matter as much and equal to any other life, then All lives don't matter.
Agree 100%. We can never know what it's like to be black.

I was thinking this just the other day....
I'm 66, so I'm getting on a bit. If I walked through town and passed a group of half a dozen white lads in hoodies and they stopped talking as I walked past, would I feel uncomfortable? Probably yes. If they were black, would I feel more uncomfortable? If I'm honest, I probably would.
That is prejudice. I don't want to believe I'm racist at all, but that prejudice confirms that however much I don't want to be, I am. Why would I feel less comfortable? No idea. It's irrational and i can't help it. But I can be honest and face up to it.

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Re: Black Lives Matter...

Post by number 9 » Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:58 pm

Once again this will probably be perceived as racist, but as a white man I've experienced what I felt were injustices. For example, I was passed over for promotion when I was in the military because of minority quotas. I've missed out on employment due to affirmative action. I'm not disagreeing with those programs, but in my eyes it wasn't fair for me at least. Of course that's nothing compared to what those of colour have had to endure for centuries although it's a lot better than it used be for everyone. Just to clarify my earlier post, when I say all cultures need to be accepted and understood that includes Caucasians. Until we respect each other, nothing will change.

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Re: Black Lives Matter...

Post by Andym » Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:16 pm

number 9 wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:58 pm
Once again this will probably be perceived as racist, but as a white man I've experienced what I felt were injustices. For example, I was passed over for promotion when I was in the military because of minority quotas. I've missed out on employment due to affirmative action. I'm not disagreeing with those programs, but in my eyes it wasn't fair for me at least. Of course that's nothing compared to what those of colour have had to endure for centuries although it's a lot better than it used be for everyone. Just to clarify my earlier post, when I say all cultures need to be accepted and understood that includes Caucasians. Until we respect each other, nothing will change.
I agree. Quotas are a way of trying to balance the books but it's covering up prejudice instead of eliminating it. If we could always appoint the best candidate for the job it would be unnecessary - and then people like yourself wouldn't lose out.

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Re: Black Lives Matter...

Post by marko69 » Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:31 pm

You're still 30 years younger than my granny, Andy. Still a wee bairn, man.

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Re: Black Lives Matter...

Post by Bluemike » Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:34 pm

number 9 wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:58 pm
Once again this will probably be perceived as racist, but as a white man I've experienced what I felt were injustices. For example, I was passed over for promotion when I was in the military because of minority quotas. I've missed out on employment due to affirmative action. I'm not disagreeing with those programs, but in my eyes it wasn't fair for me at least. Of course that's nothing compared to what those of colour have had to endure for centuries although it's a lot better than it used be for everyone. Just to clarify my earlier post, when I say all cultures need to be accepted and understood that includes Caucasians. Until we respect each other, nothing will change.
It's not racist, it's the truth and reality.

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Re: Black Lives Matter...

Post by nicscreamer » Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:07 am

Steven Gerrard , Frank Lampard , Sol Campbell, Ashley Cole....

Two instantly put into high profile manager roles... Two struggling to find clubs that will take them on.... ALL Seasoned veteran players with massive amounts of caps and all qualified to the same managerial level.

Spot the difference......

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Re: Black Lives Matter...

Post by tangfastic » Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:51 am

nicscreamer wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:07 am
Steven Gerrard , Frank Lampard , Sol Campbell, Ashley Cole....

Two instantly put into high profile manager roles... Two struggling to find clubs that will take them on.... ALL Seasoned veteran players with massive amounts of caps and all qualified to the same managerial level.

Spot the difference......
I don’t think you could put Ashley Cole as top-class manager material- never saw him as a captain or leader type. So I don’t agree that hes just as qualified as the rest. With Sol Campbell- he seemed like a strong, thoughtful leader type during his player career, so he’d potentially be a candidate for a top team. Currently manager of relegated Southend, but that’s a poisoned chalice type job. Not completely sure if it’s down to racism - it’s difficult for any young retiring player to get good managers jobs when there’s a Merry-go-round of older managers and imported foreign managers. The vast majority have to start down the leagues.

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Re: Black Lives Matter...

Post by nicscreamer » Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:41 am

As a mid conversation reference point, I would like to summarise where we are so far, as I am finding this thread brilliant! I am not trying to be controversial here, just trying to highlight some of the points in one handy list.

If I have misinterpreted anyones points let me know, but I think we are saying this wide range of views...

1. Some people believe that racism is experienced by both White and BAME groups - its works both ways?
2. Some people believe that there is no racism in the selection of football club managers? They all get the same chance?
3. Some people believe that there should not be "positive" discrimination in the selection criteria for roles in work life (incl. football I assume)? The argument being that the "best" candidate will always get the job anyway?
4. Some people believe that they need to look at themselves more because they need to analyse their own beliefs as they may be racist without that being the intention.
5. That all cultures need to be understood and respected , including Caucasian (could someone explain to me what Caucasian culture is please)?
6. Anthony Joshua telling Black people to use Black owned shops is racist?
7. Some people believe England (I assume UK covers this too) history is dominated by oppression.
8. Splits in society are caused by money more than colour?
9. Demonstrators , particularly in London appear to be nothing more than trouble makers?

Have I missed anything?

Maybe if anyone wants to pick up on any of these points we can get into more detail on each one??

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Re: Black Lives Matter...

Post by Bluemike » Wed Jun 17, 2020 12:20 pm

With regard to point 3 Nic, no I don't think the best candidate does always get the job, this is often down to Gender, I know this for a fact, I also know for a fact it's often a case of "who you know" that helps with career progression. I am sure within some industries etc Black people have been harshly treated but what I do know is that within the NHS there are thousands of Black/Asian/East European who are employed within it without prejudice.

As for point 6 Anthony Joshua said "Only" buy from Black owned shops so yes for me that is very much racist.

Point 9, a very large percentage of those so called protestors have indeed portrayed themselves as trouble makers with the violence, looting, and destruction of others property.

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Re: Black Lives Matter...

Post by nicscreamer » Wed Jun 17, 2020 12:33 pm

I agree regarding the "who you know" point. That's been prevalent for far too long. So don't you then think that some sort of "positive" discrimination is needed to allow the biggest variety of candidates to be available for a job? Assuming of course, they are all equally qualified … I.e the Rooney Rule?

Point 6 - Is it fair to say buy British? Or buy local? Or German cars are better than Japanese? I don't think Joshua is making a racist point, more a point about Black people supporting each other ?

Point 9 - There are always bad apples in any protest, and we saw that at the weekend with the "statue protectors??" They created merry havoc. The problems caused by some of the BLM protestors in no way should detract from the core point of the BLM message.

Finally, Yes, I agree that the NHS is probably the most diverse and inclusive institution in the UK. It deserves to be a role model for that, although the number of BAME staff in "high risk" roles in the current pandemic should be highlighted.

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Re: Black Lives Matter...

Post by number 9 » Wed Jun 17, 2020 1:50 pm

Just to clarify, my daughters are half Cuban. My nieces are half Mexican and I have a Pakistani cousin. I was raised to treat people the way that I'd like to be treated. That's the way I've tried to live my life.

1. Reverse racism certainly exists in America, so yes it is experienced by all races.

2. I think there is discrimination in the selection of managers and coaches in sports.

3. My comments on affirmative action and minority quotas were just made to illustrate the effects of racism on everyone.

4. I absolutely agree with that statement, however I think it applies to all races.

5. For me, Caucasian culture is the combination of ancestry for a given person. For example, it may be in the form of cooking or art. Most white people have very diverse backgrounds including those from Europe, the Middle East and North Africa. When I first moved to the U.S. I was ridiculed because of my accent and my love of football(soccer)...which at the time most American males deemed a 'Pussy-Sport'. I think that's a good example of Caucasian culture.

6. I think people are intelligent enough to decide where they want to shop.

7. If you take a closer look at history for all cultures, it's pretty grim. For example, Catholic missionaries killing babies that were identified as 'savages'.

8. The colour of green is a powerful thing.

9. Trouble makers have taken advantage of the protests. It's nice to see people like the widow of Rayshard Brooks asking protesters to be peaceful.

So there you go, Nic! I'd love to discuss more with you.

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Re: Black Lives Matter...

Post by nicscreamer » Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:32 pm

Thanks number 9, a concise list of responses, and I am not here to disagree per se with any of them. I , of course have my own views which differ in some parts to yours. But looking for places we can agree on....

2 . Totally agree. There is discrimination in the selection of managers in all sports. There was a good article by Terry Connor on TWTD
4. Yep, everyone is capable of racism no matter what their colour. I would suggest however, that the BAME community are far more affected than (certainly UK ) white males. I cant speak for the USA as I have zero knowledge of real life there - just the TV sideshow that is Trump
6. Agreed
7. Yep , don't get me started on religion lol , and especially the Catholic one.
8. Its all about the dollar
9. Protest should be allowed in every country, but it HAS to remain peaceful. I am not really sure what the Saturday statue people were protesting about? There were mixed messages coming from them about "protecting statues" yet they then proceeded to fight the Police. Confused me.

I am pretty lucky, in that I live in a Hertfordshire market town that is pretty affluent and has close to zero serious crime and depravation. I cannot begin to imagine what it must be like to be black (or poor!) and living in some run down inner city area.

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Re: Black Lives Matter...

Post by Bluemike » Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:34 pm

Point 6 - Is it fair to say buy British? Or buy local? Or German cars are better than Japanese? I don't think Joshua is making a racist point, more a point about Black people supporting each other ?
Nic, in his racist speech one of his comments was
"Show them where it hurts"
Who's them ? Whites ? He's a f**king racist and I hope Tyson Fury smashes him to pieces quite frankly.
A person in his position saying that is as bad as any of those morons that smashed up London during their so called protests.

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Re: Black Lives Matter...

Post by Andym » Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:28 pm

nicscreamer wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:41 am
As a mid conversation reference point, I would like to summarise where we are so far, as I am finding this thread brilliant! I am not trying to be controversial here, just trying to highlight some of the points in one handy list.

If I have misinterpreted anyones points let me know, but I think we are saying this wide range of views...

1. Some people believe that racism is experienced by both White and BAME groups - its works both ways?
Possibly but it's mostly one way traffic.
2. Some people believe that there is no racism in the selection of football club managers? They all get the same chance? No, racism is pretty well everywhere.
3. Some people believe that there should not be "positive" discrimination in the selection criteria for roles in work life (incl. football I assume)? The argument being that the "best" candidate will always get the job anyway?
No. There should be no need but as long as discrimination exists it's not a bad thing. But not as good as no discrimination.
4. Some people believe that they need to look at themselves more because they need to analyse their own beliefs as they may be racist without that being the intention. Definitely. And that comes from our own upbringing and the influence of the media, films etc. The moment someone says "I'm not a racist, but...." I start to worry. If we can accept that however hard we try we have prejudices, then we become better people.
5. That all cultures need to be understood and respected , including Caucasian (could someone explain to me what Caucasian culture is please)? Definitely.
6. Anthony Joshua telling Black people to use Black owned shops is racist? I'm.not convinced. I tell people not to shop at Amazon because the owner is a billionaire who treats his workers like sh*t, won't allow thrm to join a union or even stop for a p*ss, and deprives our schools, NHS etc of much needed funds by avoiding paying tax. Not sure what that makes me but speaking up against injustice isn't necessarily a sign of racism or discrimination.
7. Some people believe England (I assume UK covers this too) history is dominated by oppression. Of course All major wealth is built on depriving others of their true worth.
8. Splits in society are caused by money more than colour? That's hard to say as the vast majority of the world's wealth is owned by white men. The desire for money has led to the oppression of black people
9. Demonstrators , particularly in London appear to be nothing more than trouble makers? I think we need yo he careful here. BLM was started for good reason and is supported by people on all sides of the political spectrum and all colours. Unfortunately any demo can attract the trouble makers. However the white supremacists are all one colour, all extreme right and I believe mostly the thugs that used to cause trouble on the terraces.

Have I missed anything?

Maybe if anyone wants to pick up on any of these points we can get into more detail on each one??
A final comment. I support BLM because I believe it's important to create equality. I don't think it will ever happen but we shouldn't stop trying. BUT I don't like to see the footballers return with BLM on their shirts in the same way I don't like to see poppies on all their shirts. These should he a matter of personal choice, not a corporate decision.

Apologies for repeating much if what I've said earlier. I acknowledge that my beliefs aren't the same as everyone else's. I guess I don't see myself as British. I'm just a member of the world. We are all.here together.

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Re: Black Lives Matter...

Post by marko69 » Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:33 pm

I certainly wouldn’t be using Fury as the “tool” to take out grievances against Anthony Joshua. He’s a few million light years away from being a role model with regards to the public eye.

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