Shake up for English Football ?

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Bluemike
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Shake up for English Football ?

Post by Bluemike » Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:49 pm

'Liverpool, Man Utd propose major shake-up to English football'

http://www.skysports.com/share/12101655

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Dubai Blue
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Re: Shake up for English Football ?

Post by Dubai Blue » Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:48 am

Personally I don't see much wrong with these proposals which for those who can't be arsed to read up on it could be summarised as follows:

1. Reduction from 20 teams to 18 in Prem.
2. New Champ play off format - 2 up 2 down as usual but with 16th team competing with 3, 4 & 5 from Champ - this actually was normal in the early Prem years also.
3. No more parachute payments.
4. 25% of all combined Prem & EFL TV revenue to go to EFL clubs.
5. £250m advance against point 4 above to help with Covid.
6. Charity shield ended. EFL cup to exclude teams playing in Europe or cancelled altogether.
7. This is the controversial one - new Prem voting structure with 9 longest serving teams getting more votes and the other 9 just one vote each. Meaning big 6 can push through changes.

For me all of this is positive and whilst obviously the big 6 will have more power to act in their own interests, frankly they are businesses anyway and we just have to accept that they need virtual guarantees in order to continue investing through crises like the current one.

My suggestion would be to have a 'Prem. Constitution' signed into force in parallel enshrining some things such as promotion and relegation and financial distribution between the teams that would need more inclusive voting in order to change. Then the big 6 would not be able to change things that are considered fundamental.

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Re: Shake up for English Football ?

Post by hallamblue » Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:25 am

So they offer the rest of football a token gesture of finance ( compared to their overall wealth), and they will then effectively run football to suit their needs and only their needs. Bunch o tossas the lot of ‘em.

Sky money has killed the game.

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Re: Shake up for English Football ?

Post by AzzurroMark » Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:42 am

I believe Liverpool and ManU were the protagonists of this proposal. I think there is quite a tasty carrot bring dangled in front of the EFL here, of course there is always going to be something in it for the two aforementioned clubs, but on the whole i like what i see. .
Personally, have never had any interest in the Charity shield, so no big miss there.
The League cup is a bit of a joke of a competition, but does offer a route to Wembley and Europe for clubs prepared to take it seriously. I would like to see a new format where this and the EFL Trophy are combined and played by all League clubs excluding those playing in Europe and barring the U21 premier teams too. This would give a great chance for a club outside of the big 6 to possibly make the UEFA cup.
The parachute payments have severly skewed the levels of the Championship, therefore a fairer distribution of cash among each league and each team would be a greater leveller.
The play-off system, similar to the old format, where the 3rd bottom of the Premier league gives themselves a chance of retaining their place is a better way of doing things.
Yes the voting rights are likely to cause an issue and only time will tell what damage this could bring about; i.e a breakaway European League, an end to relegation from the top flight, points which have been muted at times in the past, and could be easier to pass if those top teams have the extra power.
Looking at it from our club's point of view; Will a smaller Premier League make our distant "top flight" dreams even more remote?

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Re: Shake up for English Football ?

Post by Bluemike » Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:18 pm

well summarised Dubal, like you guys I quite like most of what I see too, the obvious sticking point is clear to see but the Carrott being dangled to the lower leagues has to be seriously considered before its too late for some.

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Re: Shake up for English Football ?

Post by marko69 » Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:34 pm

Hats off to Dubai....... , ——-> absolutely bang on; I couldn’t be arsed reading it. :lol:

Will get better clued up when less busy. 👌👍

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Re: Shake up for English Football ?

Post by tangfastic » Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:45 pm

What potential changes could happen in regards with the voting ? That seems to be the sticking point. What exactly could these clubs change? They’ll always have their own interest in mind. As Dubai says... there has to be certain agreements that the structure or policies can’t change by voting.

I get the carrot element. A lot of money to be given to the FA and the EFL, which will hopefully filter down the leagues. I believe these ideas have apparently been floating around for few years. The optimist in me believes these clubs are wanting this for the right reasons and to protect the pyramid and the football in this country.... the cynic in me believes they’ve used the pandemic - whereby clubs are on their knees and at their weakest - so they can take advantage and become more powerful.

I’m not really convinced the most powerful PL clubs care about the lower leagues. The owners are foreign and they probably haven’t heard of most L1 or L2 clubs. Probably most of the TV revenue comes from abroad (SE Asia, Middle East) and those foreign fans only care about Man Utd, Liverpool, etc. If a big PL club wants a player, they source from abroad as opposed to looking down the leagues. Why do they need the lower leagues ?

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Re: Shake up for English Football ?

Post by Dubai Blue » Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:49 pm

We do have to be careful no to over egg the carrot :mrgreen: Let's remember that the parachute payments are pretty big with up to 9 teams receiving them every year as it stands. So this would be a big saving.

I didn't do the numbers on this but for the EFL clubs there would be a more even spread of the cash and EFL clubs would participate more in the risk/reward of new TV deals as they are made.

Big losers are the yoyo teams around the bottom of the Prem and top of the Champ. so given that they need 14 Prem votes to get this through it all depends how those lower teams see their chances.

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Re: Shake up for English Football ?

Post by number 9 » Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:29 pm

Ok so opposing views of the plan are mostly concerned about it being a power grab by the top clubs. Culture Secretary Oliver Dowden, says he's quite skeptical about the plan without giving any examples of what he means. I wonder which team he supports? West Ham has said it's against the plan with their main concern being lost revenue from two home matches. Really? Ok maybe if Ipswich were in the Prem I may not be excited about the plan, but the neutrals must at least take a serious look. Are the sacrifices of say 'voting rights' even comparable to the sacrifices of clubs going under and the very real threat of what's left of the EFL disappearing into obscurity? I've always thought TV revenues should be re-distributed throughout the EFL(playing under the banner of English football etc.) and 25% is a fair piece of the pie in my opinion. I'm just curious exactly how damaging the change of voting rights could be to the Premier league anyway. Can someone tell my why this would be so bad for football? They've been talking about a Super League since the 1980s...it's never happened. There's been talk about abolishing promotion and relegation...it's never happened. Do the voting rights mean the top clubs could enforce these changes? There's gonna be pros and cons to any bail out plan whether it's interest payments on a loan or restrictions on business operations. Surely in today's pandemic environment where supporters aren't even allowed to attend matches, some sort of compromise can be achieved.

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Re: Shake up for English Football ?

Post by Shed on tour » Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:44 pm

Think I will change BCWYWF to BOWISC.

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Re: Shake up for English Football ?

Post by bluejacko » Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:31 pm

The bit that is being kept quiet is the ability of the top clubs to veto any change of ownership by the ‘lesser’ clubs.
Obviously some sheik or such who wants to buy a club would threaten the stranglehold held by the top six.
Cant have that can we?

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Re: Shake up for English Football ?

Post by Dubai Blue » Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:47 pm

No that doesn't work for me either. I wonder how much other small print there is to pick through....

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Re: Shake up for English Football ?

Post by number 9 » Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:07 pm

bluejacko wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:31 pm
The bit that is being kept quiet is the ability of the top clubs to veto any change of ownership by the ‘lesser’ clubs.
Obviously some sheik or such who wants to buy a club would threaten the stranglehold held by the top six.
Cant have that can we?
Surely those votes/vetoes would still be based on formulaic criteria for new ownership just as it is now? Maybe not I suppose, which makes it very important for all disclosures to be made public before any decisions are made. There will also be the scrutiny of the public and press to question any unjustified decisions.

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Re: Shake up for English Football ?

Post by Shed on tour » Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:55 am

Don't always agree with Watson but imo on this occasion I feel he has got it pretty much spot on.

https://www.eadt.co.uk/sport/project-bi ... -1-6880278

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Re: Shake up for English Football ?

Post by Bluemike » Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:14 am

It certainly does make you look at it in a different light, he may well be right, sadly the lower league clubs will get no help unless they sell their souls to the devil, the alternative is that sadly many are going to die.

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Re: Shake up for English Football ?

Post by tangfastic » Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:26 am

It’s what these clubs can do with their voting rights that worry me.
Stuart Watson a few - as below.

Just imagine what they’ll be able to do with their extra voting power. Vetoing takeovers to prevent any other pesky clubs trying to muscle in at the top, including ‘B’ teams in the lower leagues and finally getting to play league fixtures played abroad. That could all be just the tip of the iceberg. We already know they want to scrap the EFL Cup (which can be a vital revenue stream for lower league clubs).”

There’s no way Man U and Liverpool are doing this without a lot of self-interest.

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Re: Shake up for English Football ?

Post by Shed on tour » Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:26 am

Bluemike wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:14 am
It certainly does make you like atbit in a different light, he may well be right, sadly the lower league clubs will get no help unless they sell their souls to the devil, the alternative is that sadly many are going to die.
Mike
Imo the game sold itself to the devil years ago and now we are seeing the repercussions of it. I fear that many lower league clubs are going to die and football as we knew it will never be the same.

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Re: Shake up for English Football ?

Post by Dubai Blue » Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:12 am

Ok I decided to have a free flowing brainstorm as this for me has opened up a much bigger question about how our sport is organised. So here goes, please forgive the verbal diarrhoea.

Personally I think there is too much knee jerking going on including by Mr. Stuart Watson. I doubt whether the 'big 2' ever expected to be supported strongly enough to put through all these changes. What is happening here are the initial salvoes of a war between those who can profitably monetise their assets and those who currently cannot, (at least on their own).

It must be clear that a small number of clubs at the top of the Prem are now capable of breaking away and developing a number of new international revenue opportunities and their owners must be very frustrated at not being able to do so and at the pace of change. Business develops and succeeds by being dynamic and creative and having the agility to implement change quickly.

The 'problem' is that these businesses are being run as a sport and ostensibly for the shared benefit of a larger group of clubs that don't have these powers and to a certain extent cling onto the coat tails of the big clubs' branding.

I don't think that we have the right to deny the big clubs the possibility of setting sail on their own and personally I do think that actually a number of clubs currently idling below the Prem could easily build up their own domestic product based on the reputation and fanbase built up over the last 100+ years of footballing tradition, our own club being one of them.

Is it not the case that the rot that is at the core of our sport is based on overblown aspiration? Over extended expenditure on trying to achieve what other clubs have spent at least many decades to achieve?

I know I'm looking much further than these current proposals but surely it's time to reduce this egotistical (in relation to club owners) and myopic aim by the Fleetwoods of this world to be the next Liverpool. Let's reorganise the leagues into groups of clubs that have similarly sized balance sheets and fanbases and give each of these groups enough financial support to stay more or less in these groups. There is no need to have teams being relegated or promoted from/to these groups (except maybe on rare occasions that they can demonstrate that they qualify on social or financial basis). Each of these groups can have mini league systems with internal promotions and relegations but care should be taken to make sure that all externally generated revenue (TV, Media &c) is shared equally across the clubs in the group.
Last edited by Dubai Blue on Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Shake up for English Football ?

Post by Bluemike » Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:21 am

Shed on tour wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:26 am
Bluemike wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:14 am
It certainly does make you like atbit in a different light, he may well be right, sadly the lower league clubs will get no help unless they sell their souls to the devil, the alternative is that sadly many are going to die.
Mike
Imo the game sold itself to the devil years ago and now we are seeing the repercussions of it. I fear that many lower league clubs are going to die and football as we knew it will never be the same.
Ain't that the truth !!
Incidentally Tony, what is BOWISC ?

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Re: Shake up for English Football ?

Post by tangfastic » Tue Oct 13, 2020 11:04 am

Dubai Blue wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:12 am
Ok I decided to have a free flowing brainstorm as this for me has opened up a much bigger question about how our sport is organised. So here goes, please forgive the verbal diarrhoea.

Personally I think there is too much knee jerking going on including by Mr. Stuart Watson. I doubt whether the 'big 2' ever expected to be supported strongly enough to put through all these changes. What is happening here are the initial salvoes of a war between those who can profitably monetise their assets and those who currently cannot, (at least on their own).

It must be clear that a small number of clubs at the top of the Prem are now capable of breaking away and developing a number of new revenue opportunities and their owners must be very frustrated at not being able to do so and at the pace of change. Business develops and succeeds by being dynamic and creative and having the agility to implement change quickly.

The 'problem' is that these businesses are being run as a sport and ostensibly for the shared benefit of a larger group of clubs that don't have these powers and to a certain extent cling onto the coat tails of the big clubs' branding.

I don't think that we have the right to deny the big clubs the possibility of setting sail on their own and personally I do think that actually a number of clubs currently idling below the Prem could easily build up their own product based on the reputation and fanbase built up over the last 100+ years of footballing tradition, our own club being one of them.

Is it not the case that the rot that is at the core of our sport is based on overblown aspiration? Over extended expenditure on trying to achieve what other clubs have spent at least many decades to achieve?

I know I'm looking much further than these current proposals but surely it's time to reduce this egotistical (in relation to club owners) and myopic aim by the Fleetwoods of this world to be the next Liverpool. Let's reorganise the leagues into groups of clubs that have similarly sized balance sheets and fanbases and give each of these groups enough financial support to stay more or less in these groups. There is no need to have teams being relegated or promoted from/to these groups (except maybe on rare occasions that they can demonstrate that they qualify on social or financial basis). Each of these groups can have mini league systems with internal promotions and relegations but care should be taken to make sure that all externally generated revenue (TV, Media &c) is shared equally across the clubs in the group.
I personally don’t care about the ambitions and frustrations of the owners of Liverpool, Man Utd or whoever for developing more revenue opportunities. Especially at the time of a global pandemic. If these owners are frustrated -then buy another business outside football to develop - it’s not as if they have any personal vested interest in the history of a Liverpool or ManUtd. They’re not fans of these clubs nor probably football. Isn’t it not challenging enough to try and win the Premier League, FA Cup or the Champions League? Or is the sole challenge making more and more profit which exceeds all footballing ambitions?

It’s all well and good to focus on the big six PL teams, but the great thing about the PL is it’s competitiveness. Even last season a poor side like Norwich beat defending champions Man City. This season Aston Villa turnEd over Liverpool. If these clubs grow stronger and the chasing pack get weaker then it impacts the overall quality of the league. If Liverpool or Man Utd feel they’re ambitions are too big for the PL, then simply f*ck off - create their own European or Global Super Leagues. Build multiple stadia across the world and play their matches in Kuala Lumpa or Doha or wherever. The remaining clubs could well build a competitive
a sustainable English pyramid system.

But I agree that both Man U and Liverpool probably don’t expect other clubs to agree to this - so it’s likely this has been put out there to open up negotiations for whatever they actually want.

I do agree that it isn’t all about the PL end of the story. Can we actually sustain 92 clubs? Bury didn’t go out of business solely because of the PL - they were mismanaged and were chasing something outside of their means. Maybe it would actually be better if we did cut the number of clubs to 80 or whatever. When you’re getting some League 1 clubs only pulling in 2-3000 fans - how can they sustain themselves with these gate revenues?

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Re: Shake up for English Football ?

Post by hallamblue » Tue Oct 13, 2020 11:29 am

Spot on Stuart Watson. Its an absolute con and shameful greed at the worst time for the game. But that what's these big clubs are all about - themselves.

https://www.eadt.co.uk/sport/project-bi ... -1-6880278

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Re: Shake up for English Football ?

Post by number 9 » Tue Oct 13, 2020 11:44 am

I wonder how Marcus Evans feels about it? Here’s some views from other owners and chairmen.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/54516180

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Re: Shake up for English Football ?

Post by Shed on tour » Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:05 pm

Bluemike wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:21 am
Shed on tour wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:26 am
Bluemike wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:14 am
It certainly does make you like atbit in a different light, he may well be right, sadly the lower league clubs will get no help unless they sell their souls to the devil, the alternative is that sadly many are going to die.
Mike
Imo the game sold itself to the devil years ago and now we are seeing the repercussions of it. I fear that many lower league clubs are going to die and football as we knew it will never be the same.
Ain't that the truth !!
Incidentally Tony, what is BOWISC ?
Beware Of Wolf In Sheep’s Clothing. Before you ask, no I ain’t no bible basher! 😂

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Re: Shake up for English Football ?

Post by Bluemike » Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:25 pm

There is an interview with Paul Lambert on sky sports and he is dead against it.

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Re: Shake up for English Football ?

Post by Dubai Blue » Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:29 pm

Well I cannot begin to imagine the behind doors conversations that this has opened up.

If all that happens is the cancellation of parachute payments and their replacement with a fairer distribution of TV money around the EFL then I'd be happy with that for now.

I think it's clear that things are coming to a head and something is going to change.

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Re: Shake up for English Football ?

Post by Bluemike » Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:42 pm

Shed on tour wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:05 pm
Bluemike wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:21 am
Shed on tour wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:26 am


Mike
Imo the game sold itself to the devil years ago and now we are seeing the repercussions of it. I fear that many lower league clubs are going to die and football as we knew it will never be the same.
Ain't that the truth !!
Incidentally Tony, what is BOWISC ?
Beware Of Wolf In Sheep’s Clothing. Before you ask, no I ain’t no bible basher! 😂
Get back in your Watchtower :lol:

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Re: Shake up for English Football ?

Post by Charnwood » Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:55 pm

Bluemike wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:25 pm
There is an interview with Paul Lambert on sky sports and he is dead against it.
Why on earth would Paul Lambert be dead against it, maybe he thinks we’re going to be a yo yo club again and will lose out on parachute payments 😂, or maybe he’s thinking of two less opportunities for a new job managing in the Premier League.😂 Anyway like many of his decisions I’m thinking he’s most likely called it wrong.

I’m pretty sure where it is now won’t be the final version, but the sentiment is definitely heading in the right direction and it will be interesting to see or listen to what exactly Paul Lambert has to say on the subject, because his comments may well have been taken out of context.

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Re: Shake up for English Football ?

Post by Dubai Blue » Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:30 pm

Couldn't help thinking the same Charnwood!

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Re: Shake up for English Football ?

Post by saint jude » Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:58 pm

It would take a certain percentage of votes for this to go through. Imagine a number of top league teams and even Championship are against the idea. It's easy to shown apathy towards the EPL as in truth it's somewhere we'll (this club) will never be any time soon again and I don't see what goes on there most of the time regards scores and team endeavors. An area of the structure that doesn't seem to matter anymore at least in respect of who does what. Primary focus is here and League One, been that way for some time now.

A number of people in the elite league with their hands out. More interested in what profits can be made over the welfare of teams and others.
Hypothetical at this stage as this idea still has to be implemented in order to go through but with enough no votes it could easily fall away and remain as it is. Like a large part of society in general, the top look after themselves and f*ck everyone else. It's regrettable but really nothing new.

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Re: Shake up for English Football ?

Post by number 9 » Wed Oct 14, 2020 1:31 am

Is it me, or does everyone have trouble comprehending Saint’s posts? This proposal is fair and sensible. Imagine how many jobs it will save or maybe create. Come on...do we really care if the top clubs get more power? Whatever I don’t.

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